Quick n easy,
Any recommendations on diy/new/used subwoofer thats preferably uk based?
Main floor-standers are -3 at 50hz so I need a sub because they do not satisfy by their own. I've not heard good enjoyable bass for a while so...
First impressions via google, BK seem to manufacture for alot of 'reputable' sub companies like for rel and mj acoustics, but I'd like re-assurance here considering google gives back so many millions results and top results are usually heavily sponsored.
Undecided on ported vs sealed, I think ported is a more natural sounding approach involving air, seeing majority of studios at least in the 80s era I think were ported.
It will be for music playback, some more recent tracks in my list go to 28hz or so, I like that 80s funk / hip hop sound too and have alot of up-beat music like house though I think bpm is not an issue if a sub is powered properly.
The room its for is is about 4 by 5m or so, I think XXL400 from bk would do the trick or save up for monolith (overkill it).
If its cheaper a diy kit would be cool if the result is superior.
Thanks for reading
Any recommendations on diy/new/used subwoofer thats preferably uk based?
Main floor-standers are -3 at 50hz so I need a sub because they do not satisfy by their own. I've not heard good enjoyable bass for a while so...
First impressions via google, BK seem to manufacture for alot of 'reputable' sub companies like for rel and mj acoustics, but I'd like re-assurance here considering google gives back so many millions results and top results are usually heavily sponsored.
Undecided on ported vs sealed, I think ported is a more natural sounding approach involving air, seeing majority of studios at least in the 80s era I think were ported.
It will be for music playback, some more recent tracks in my list go to 28hz or so, I like that 80s funk / hip hop sound too and have alot of up-beat music like house though I think bpm is not an issue if a sub is powered properly.
The room its for is is about 4 by 5m or so, I think XXL400 from bk would do the trick or save up for monolith (overkill it).
If its cheaper a diy kit would be cool if the result is superior.
Thanks for reading
Some links (uk), others:
Sub-Woofer Kits
Subwoofers
Subwoofers
IPL ACOUSTICS SPEAKERS FOR HOME CINEMA USE
Products Page
Velleman Subwoofer Kit
Home Theater Forum - Home Theater Systems - HomeTheaterShack - DIY Subwoofers Members Build Project Database
My recommendation for music is two good speakers with good strong LF extension. Subs is mainly for special effects or HT. After saying that, if you need a sub to give you some lacking low frequency, they will not give you stereo sound like the speakers pair, try understand what size type you will need, amp, and make mention of the system you have.
Sub-Woofer Kits
Subwoofers
Subwoofers
IPL ACOUSTICS SPEAKERS FOR HOME CINEMA USE
Products Page
Velleman Subwoofer Kit
Home Theater Forum - Home Theater Systems - HomeTheaterShack - DIY Subwoofers Members Build Project Database
My recommendation for music is two good speakers with good strong LF extension. Subs is mainly for special effects or HT. After saying that, if you need a sub to give you some lacking low frequency, they will not give you stereo sound like the speakers pair, try understand what size type you will need, amp, and make mention of the system you have.
Thanks for the reply
Well my understanding is I have a small room so I could get away with one calibrated woofer but yes two would be ideal.
I'm not one for sitting in the bang in sweet spot either.
I do have two 8 inch monacor sp210 (90db) drivers in a 25L approx (mission 700) box, but I've yet to experiment with perhaps an amp more capable of LF because 50rms one I have isnt doing that pair justice. I think 8inches should be sufficient for good levels considering how small the room is.
I also have another pair are 6.5 inch drivers which I think I could just augment with one sub.
The reason I say this is I had a cheap 2.1 desktop system and it sounded pretty good with the bass and that was even in a larger room.
I've tried a gemeni by bk and it sounds utter rubbish really, though again its yet to be calibrated and a better amp perhaps for mains.
recently got an ecm8000 mic so going to take measurements soon.
Well my understanding is I have a small room so I could get away with one calibrated woofer but yes two would be ideal.
I'm not one for sitting in the bang in sweet spot either.
I do have two 8 inch monacor sp210 (90db) drivers in a 25L approx (mission 700) box, but I've yet to experiment with perhaps an amp more capable of LF because 50rms one I have isnt doing that pair justice. I think 8inches should be sufficient for good levels considering how small the room is.
I also have another pair are 6.5 inch drivers which I think I could just augment with one sub.
The reason I say this is I had a cheap 2.1 desktop system and it sounded pretty good with the bass and that was even in a larger room.
I've tried a gemeni by bk and it sounds utter rubbish really, though again its yet to be calibrated and a better amp perhaps for mains.
recently got an ecm8000 mic so going to take measurements soon.
Even in a small room, I think 8" will strain to move enough air. Maybe one of the ultra-long-throw types could be OK, but I still just prefer more surface area.
Sealed designs have a better time response than ported. However, ported subs can move a lot more air since both the cone and port are active. That is why almost all subs are ported. Ported can sound boomy and nasty, or if tuned lower, can sound fine and tight.
I'm not sure what brands you have available in the U.K. Here you would get a lot of nice callouts for Hsu Research, SVS, Paradigm. What brands are by you?
Sealed designs have a better time response than ported. However, ported subs can move a lot more air since both the cone and port are active. That is why almost all subs are ported. Ported can sound boomy and nasty, or if tuned lower, can sound fine and tight.
I'm not sure what brands you have available in the U.K. Here you would get a lot of nice callouts for Hsu Research, SVS, Paradigm. What brands are by you?
The MONACOR SPH-210 is not a good sub. It works great in a BR or horn for >F3 44Hz.
I have no doubt they make nice midwoofer speakers set with properly matched/designed crossover/speakers.
The subs you posted - link - look great also.
What you need with this setup it's the lower <50Hz extension as you mention.
A driver like the 8" SCANSPEAK 22W/8851T00 can get you to the lows F3 32Hz, but that is not enough for you.
The Vifa-PEERLESS NE265W-04 (/08) can put you in the vicinity of the 28Hz -3dB (no equalization), 29 for the 4 Ohm (45L) and 28 for the 8 Ohm in a 62L BR enclosure tuned to 30Hz.
You can achieve the best response of your system with the Scanspeak 26W 4558T00 Discovery set for a maximized sub with a 67L BR enclosure (net) plus internal port and drivers volumes and tuned to 26Hz (F3=25Hz, ff).
(The ports are extra long considering as an example a smaller enclosure with a rectangular (1x) port 6cm (or 6.5) x 25cm for a 60L@27/28Hz BR gives port >80cm-90cm in length.
To be more precise, Scanspeak 26W 4558T00 - 67L@26Hz, for the first alignment; (1xrectangular) port 6.4cm x 25cm, 83cm in length.
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/26w-4558t00.pdf
XXL400 vs Velodyne CHT 10/12Q(R) | AVForums
What sub please?
I have no doubt they make nice midwoofer speakers set with properly matched/designed crossover/speakers.
The subs you posted - link - look great also.
What you need with this setup it's the lower <50Hz extension as you mention.
A driver like the 8" SCANSPEAK 22W/8851T00 can get you to the lows F3 32Hz, but that is not enough for you.
The Vifa-PEERLESS NE265W-04 (/08) can put you in the vicinity of the 28Hz -3dB (no equalization), 29 for the 4 Ohm (45L) and 28 for the 8 Ohm in a 62L BR enclosure tuned to 30Hz.
You can achieve the best response of your system with the Scanspeak 26W 4558T00 Discovery set for a maximized sub with a 67L BR enclosure (net) plus internal port and drivers volumes and tuned to 26Hz (F3=25Hz, ff).
(The ports are extra long considering as an example a smaller enclosure with a rectangular (1x) port 6cm (or 6.5) x 25cm for a 60L@27/28Hz BR gives port >80cm-90cm in length.
To be more precise, Scanspeak 26W 4558T00 - 67L@26Hz, for the first alignment; (1xrectangular) port 6.4cm x 25cm, 83cm in length.
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/26w-4558t00.pdf
XXL400 vs Velodyne CHT 10/12Q(R) | AVForums
What sub please?
Build one.
Download WinISD, learn how to input new drivers, input the JBL GTO1214, and run a few models of sealed and ported designs.
I put together a 2x12" (with those drivers) sealed subwoofer that'll go below 20Hz, and put a 1kW QSC amp behind them. Cost ~£220, plus wood and crossovers, and I'll knock the stuffing out of anything you can buy for that price.
Want to go louder?
Go ported. 120L (per driver) and tune to 18Hz. You'll be ~flat (in room) to 18Hz, but you'll need a steep low-cut below 15Hz to prevent overloading the drivers.
Chris
Download WinISD, learn how to input new drivers, input the JBL GTO1214, and run a few models of sealed and ported designs.
I put together a 2x12" (with those drivers) sealed subwoofer that'll go below 20Hz, and put a 1kW QSC amp behind them. Cost ~£220, plus wood and crossovers, and I'll knock the stuffing out of anything you can buy for that price.
Want to go louder?
Go ported. 120L (per driver) and tune to 18Hz. You'll be ~flat (in room) to 18Hz, but you'll need a steep low-cut below 15Hz to prevent overloading the drivers.
Chris
What method would we say we preferred for music? Ported or Sealed?
Not keen on ported if low cut is required as my mains can only do -3 @ 50...
Thanks for the replies.
Is that a seperate amp? googled QSC 1kW and it came back with 600 quid amp...?
Not keen on ported if low cut is required as my mains can only do -3 @ 50...
Thanks for the replies.
If you don't mind using a car audio subwoofer driver, Infinity REF1260W might be a decent choice for sealed box. It has low free-air resonance frequency and Qes/Qts values of around 0,4. Not very usual parameters for an automotive 12" woofer.
You can take a look at the data sheet here:
http://ch.infinitysystems.com/tl_fi.../Reference/Reference/1260w/REF1260W_PI_EN.pdf
You can take a look at the data sheet here:
http://ch.infinitysystems.com/tl_fi.../Reference/Reference/1260w/REF1260W_PI_EN.pdf
Low cut would be for the subwoofer. It cuts off frequencies below 15Hz, to stop the driver from even trying to produce those, because all it'll do below port tuning is produce distortion.
Both sealed and ported alignments will need some kind of signal processing. You'll have to implement a crossover (easy enough - its just a couple of op-amps), and then the sealed cabinet will need eq to get a flat frequency response (look up Linkwitz Transform), and the ported will need a steep low cut below port tuning.
Have you downloaded WinISD yet?
For amps, here's something that'll do:
Samson Servo 550 Audio Amplifier | eBay
More than I paid for my QSC, but those are very good amps. I thrashed mine and it just sat there and took it.
2nd hand PA amps are perfect here. The class AB ones have huge power supplies and plenty of heatsinking, and therefore weigh a tonne. PA users are in a hurry to get rid of them, as newer amps are much much lighter, so I tend to pick them up where I can.
My QSC is a USA 850, which is good for a little over a kilowatt when driving low impedance loads. They don't come up so often, but when one appeared in a 2nd hand shop, I knew I had to have it.
Choosing an alignment "for music" is very vague. What sort of music, how loud, what're the size constraints?
A sealed box like mine (~16" cube external) is pretty domestically acceptable. For those unused to subwoofers, its a bit large. It replaced a 15" 6th order bandpass PA subwoofer (the size of a medium fridge), so its considered small around here.
A ported box will provide much more output than a sealed cabinet (or, lower distortion for the same output), but is also much bigger.
HTH
Chris
edit - oh lookie here
edit2 - looks like the link's not working. Search QSC USA 850 on eBay
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Yes I did, I'm assessing the options, the diy approach, you suggest the QSC amp (though quite big) would require a box, driver and filter combo I understand.
If the cost/performance this way is better than say the BK XXLS400 then why not.
I know I'd need to implement a crossover for Mid-bass to Sub-bass either way. My father's familiar with this aspect so should be a doddle with his help.
Space wise, I have a whole corner of the room... or I could have a sub under the 'coffee table' perhaps.
The room is 4x5m, if the system is level, I don't want 80dB or near deafening levels due to the nature of the space.
I know about that already by running my mids+highs without real bass, having a degenerative physco-acoustical effect on my hearing. Before I realised 'I need a subwoofer' I messed around and experienced some ear ringing.
So, optimum power for size of room.
IIRC a room acts as a secondary box so I'll use calibration after also, unless calibration software (REW+omni mic) by itself can do all the work in the first instance.
As for music...
50% is 'compressed' music whatever that is, typical CD material since 90s I guess all genres, but also older dynamic recordings.
I plan on getting LP deck in future also, I did consider digital crossover using PC but LP capability would be nice.
Excuse the depth here I'd like to get this right first time, I think it's great that such a place with expertise exists.
Sealed or ported whichever sounds more 'natural'? Thought I think this is probably just a figment of my imagination thus far as I have never compared either.
As another member said, as long as its accurate, thats what matters.
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The seperate amp will need to be hidden away somewhere, or you could build it into the subwoofer enclosure itself.
There's plenty of space inside the QSC amp, so I'd suggest tapping off the internal power supplies for the op-amps already there in order to implement your crossover. You can get PCBs on eBay that'll do the job nicely, or use stripboard to make your own. Either's fine.
I'd head toward a sealed cabinet, for simplicity of construction. I tried a 75L ported box with one of my JBLs, and getting a big enough port in there was a nightmare - I used a 60mm by 200mm port, which had to be folded twice to fit in, and it still wasn't wide enough to avoid wind noises at higher levels.
With a sealed cabinet, there's no bottom limit to how low they can go. The maximum volume just gets more limited the lower you ask them to go. So, you could start by using a Linkwitz Transform to get to fc=20Hz, Qc=0.5, and see how that sounds. Not enough before you run out of headroom?
Go up to 25Hz, or get more cabinets.
The QSC amp is rated to power 4 JBLs (2 in parallel, per side), so you could do two small sealed subwoofers if that took your fancy.
FWIW, I checked out the BK subwoofer that you mentioned. The drivers in there each cost the same as 2 JBLs. Driver-for-driver, you'd get lower distortion from the Peerless XXLS driver they use. With 2 JBLs, you'd level up the playing field a bit. The JBLs would ultimately go louder, but the Peerless may still take the edge in lower distortion.
Either way, its £120 in drivers**. The amplifier can be almost anything, so long as it has plenty of grunt. The bit that matters at the electronics side is the processing.
** or you could build a couple of seperate 1x12" JBL subwoofers for a similar cost to a single Peerless. If you spread them around the room, you'll get a flatter frequency response as room modes are excited more evenly. One in the corner and one under the coffee table would likely give better performance than a 2x12" in the corner.
Even once narrowed down to sealed and 12", there's still lots of options available.
Chris
There's plenty of space inside the QSC amp, so I'd suggest tapping off the internal power supplies for the op-amps already there in order to implement your crossover. You can get PCBs on eBay that'll do the job nicely, or use stripboard to make your own. Either's fine.
I'd head toward a sealed cabinet, for simplicity of construction. I tried a 75L ported box with one of my JBLs, and getting a big enough port in there was a nightmare - I used a 60mm by 200mm port, which had to be folded twice to fit in, and it still wasn't wide enough to avoid wind noises at higher levels.
With a sealed cabinet, there's no bottom limit to how low they can go. The maximum volume just gets more limited the lower you ask them to go. So, you could start by using a Linkwitz Transform to get to fc=20Hz, Qc=0.5, and see how that sounds. Not enough before you run out of headroom?
Go up to 25Hz, or get more cabinets.
The QSC amp is rated to power 4 JBLs (2 in parallel, per side), so you could do two small sealed subwoofers if that took your fancy.
FWIW, I checked out the BK subwoofer that you mentioned. The drivers in there each cost the same as 2 JBLs. Driver-for-driver, you'd get lower distortion from the Peerless XXLS driver they use. With 2 JBLs, you'd level up the playing field a bit. The JBLs would ultimately go louder, but the Peerless may still take the edge in lower distortion.
Either way, its £120 in drivers**. The amplifier can be almost anything, so long as it has plenty of grunt. The bit that matters at the electronics side is the processing.
** or you could build a couple of seperate 1x12" JBL subwoofers for a similar cost to a single Peerless. If you spread them around the room, you'll get a flatter frequency response as room modes are excited more evenly. One in the corner and one under the coffee table would likely give better performance than a 2x12" in the corner.
Even once narrowed down to sealed and 12", there's still lots of options available.
Chris
Ok, so this crossover you speak of is a Linkwitz–Riley HPF at 20hz, correct?
I'm not confusing this with the XO later on in the spectrum circa 100hz I'd need for connecting 'Bass' and Mids am I.
I was always confused about what to call this range and after hours of reading I concluded that the terms (Sub/Low/Mid and Bass/Mid) vary in systems depending on ones taste/expenditure.
Personally I like to think for avg. person like me;
Sub 0-100 (one for starters)
Mid 100-3500
High 3500-20000hz
is sufficient for entry level enjoyable sound.
For some a forth bi-amped 'range' exists, which is where I got confused.
I like to think regardless of this you can never have enough 'defined' parts of the sound spectrum.
Theoretically you could have a pair of speakers for every single hertz in the spectrum and a room with Forty-thousand speakers, Twenty thousand for each stereo channel, lol... But,
Looking at the logarithmic scale, I see three decades so I say a pair for each and be done with it.
I had 2.1 system which eventually broke but sounded phenomenal for £35, I think Logitech nailed it with the assignment of driver size relative to the spectrum, I think it was a 5inch sub and 2x2inch mids/highs. 'Balanced sound'.
But I then needed something with more bottom end and more robust obviously.
That QSC amp starting at 50 on ebay is tempting.
Probably will stick to sealed 12" as you say, for simplicity, however just one for starters and upgrade to two time permitting
.Stuck between suggested REF1260W and JBLGTO1214 Though?
and thanks again for your time and knowledge.
*Post edited by Moderator at Member's request
Got the QSC USA 850 tank from ebay for 113 delivered
8 ohms, 255 watts (850 watts bridged)
4 ohms, 425 watts
Reading summary on Hoffman law on this thread and will take this into account when designing the box.
Should I go 4 or 8ohm chris? I think as suggested automotive woofer would allow more headroom as they are 4ohm.
Thanks
8 ohms, 255 watts (850 watts bridged)
4 ohms, 425 watts
Reading summary on Hoffman law on this thread and will take this into account when designing the box.
Should I go 4 or 8ohm chris? I think as suggested automotive woofer would allow more headroom as they are 4ohm.
Thanks
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A few things:
1) You are making an electronic crossover, right? Passive sub crossovers cannot work due to the impedance peaks of the sub and satellites. Unless you make passive filters at the inputs of the amplifiers, which could be easier than messing about with opamps.
2) 850W bridge for 113! Nice! That seems like a REALLY low price, especially delivered.
3) Do not believe that lower impedance is always better or will give more headroom.
In fact, it draws more current out of the amp, therefore generating more waste heat inside the amp. And therefore likelier to clip the amp or run out of the safe operating area of the transistors. My experience from many years in car audio was that amps rated to run at 2 ohms *might* on a good day with a tail wind deliver 1 dB more peak power, at the price of a lot more heat and a lot more current out of the battery. This was even so of amps which "doubled their power" from 4 ohms to 2, because when you actually measured such amps what you found was the 4 ohm spec was underrated in order to make it appear the power was doubling. Plain-technology amps like the 850 won't be any different just because they are running from 120V instead of 12V (maybe somewhat less heat in the power supply section).
Having said all that, 4 and 8 ohm woofers of the "same" model always have different specs. If the Thiele-Smalls are somehow the same, it means likely the excursion (voice coil overhang) or some other factor is different. So pick the woofer(s) that will work for you and don't worry about which impedance is "better"-the amp is beefy enough to run either impedance.
1) You are making an electronic crossover, right? Passive sub crossovers cannot work due to the impedance peaks of the sub and satellites. Unless you make passive filters at the inputs of the amplifiers, which could be easier than messing about with opamps.
2) 850W bridge for 113! Nice! That seems like a REALLY low price, especially delivered.
3) Do not believe that lower impedance is always better or will give more headroom.
In fact, it draws more current out of the amp, therefore generating more waste heat inside the amp. And therefore likelier to clip the amp or run out of the safe operating area of the transistors. My experience from many years in car audio was that amps rated to run at 2 ohms *might* on a good day with a tail wind deliver 1 dB more peak power, at the price of a lot more heat and a lot more current out of the battery. This was even so of amps which "doubled their power" from 4 ohms to 2, because when you actually measured such amps what you found was the 4 ohm spec was underrated in order to make it appear the power was doubling. Plain-technology amps like the 850 won't be any different just because they are running from 120V instead of 12V (maybe somewhat less heat in the power supply section).
Having said all that, 4 and 8 ohm woofers of the "same" model always have different specs. If the Thiele-Smalls are somehow the same, it means likely the excursion (voice coil overhang) or some other factor is different. So pick the woofer(s) that will work for you and don't worry about which impedance is "better"-the amp is beefy enough to run either impedance.
head_unit,
The QSC amp will (just about) drive 2ohm, but will only give ~550w/ch. It'll bridge into 4ohm, 1100w, but will get very hot doing it: the manufacturer recommends extensive testing under these conditions before being put into permanent use, as there's a fair chance it'll go into thermal protect (ie, it'll shut down) operated like this.
giro, that rather depends on how many drivers you'll eventually have, but I'd go for 4ohm. You're never going to overload that QSC, so you'd be safe enough running it into a 2ohm load if you end up with a pair of drivers in parallel per side.
The QSC amp will (just about) drive 2ohm, but will only give ~550w/ch. It'll bridge into 4ohm, 1100w, but will get very hot doing it: the manufacturer recommends extensive testing under these conditions before being put into permanent use, as there's a fair chance it'll go into thermal protect (ie, it'll shut down) operated like this.
giro, that rather depends on how many drivers you'll eventually have, but I'd go for 4ohm. You're never going to overload that QSC, so you'd be safe enough running it into a 2ohm load if you end up with a pair of drivers in parallel per side.
Please excuse if this a double post.
----
I understand. For time-being I would like to stick to just one woofer.
Because QSC is bridgeable at 8ohm would it not be a good to use all the power available, as opposed to making one channel redundant?
I wont be driving the system to beyond 90dB (or 80dB considering how small the room is).
I'm unsure on final Low Cut frequency because I live in an
end terraced (✓) bungalow (✓) but multiple neighbors quite close.
I don't not know what 25hz sounds like never mind 20hz.
I know for a fact that these levels will be obvious through concrete, but how much I'm not sure.
Also, however acheived it'll involve line level active xo/filtering as suggested. See below for my idea regarding a 4way, which I think would be a much simpler approach considering they can be customer-defined on ebay for good price.
Sorry if it appears as if I'm asking alot but I'd like to get this right, and the way I see it anyone else reading is also enlightened withour help.
----
Ye, though I definitely prefer active crossover at line-level over a passive crossover for simplicity.
Thank Chris for suggesting,
I understand. For time-being I would like to stick to just one woofer.
Because QSC is bridgeable at 8ohm would it not be a good to use all the power available, as opposed to making one channel redundant?
I wont be driving the system to beyond 90dB (or 80dB considering how small the room is).
I'm unsure on final Low Cut frequency because I live in an
end terraced (✓) bungalow (✓) but multiple neighbors quite close.
I don't not know what 25hz sounds like never mind 20hz.
I know for a fact that these levels will be obvious through concrete, but how much I'm not sure
.Also, however acheived it'll involve line level active xo/filtering as suggested. See below for my idea regarding a 4way, which I think would be a much simpler approach considering they can be customer-defined on ebay for good price.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sorry if it appears as if I'm asking alot but I'd like to get this right, and the way I see it anyone else reading is also enlightened with
our help.
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