Okay, I'm not talking about enclosures that have great WAF, rather systems that by whatever means create an acoustic "illusion" that is so convincing that it becomes, to all intents and purposes, impossible to "see", or become mentally aware, that the speaker drivers are the origin of the sound. Items like the MBL "watermelons" are known for pulling this off to a large degree, but there are other ways of doing it ...
Pano has been 'outed' on this, see http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-what-153.html and following pages for some discussion on the phemonenon, and its "spookiness". So, I'm curious whether anyone else on this forum has come across it, and what the circumstances were, etc, etc ...
If you're not sure whether you've had it, then it means that you haven't: it's such a distinct sound experience that, as Pano says, forever more it remains a key audio memory.
Frank
Pano has been 'outed' on this, see http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-what-153.html and following pages for some discussion on the phemonenon, and its "spookiness". So, I'm curious whether anyone else on this forum has come across it, and what the circumstances were, etc, etc ...
If you're not sure whether you've had it, then it means that you haven't: it's such a distinct sound experience that, as Pano says, forever more it remains a key audio memory.
Frank
Experienced many times. One of the objective for me.
The simpler the crossover (full-range is of course the best), the easier to achieve that. The driver must have low distortion. Very hard with exotic light-weight cone material, easier with paper based.
For me, it is just a matter of getting clean reproduction from each of the drivers, and the drivers being in phase.
The simpler the crossover (full-range is of course the best), the easier to achieve that. The driver must have low distortion. Very hard with exotic light-weight cone material, easier with paper based.
For me, it is just a matter of getting clean reproduction from each of the drivers, and the drivers being in phase.
spooky realism? Yes thats the whole point of this lark. Speakers that disappear? Not an accurate phrase, in my opinion. Try playing birdsong, Then claim that the speakers'disappear'.....image is just as important as localised HF. With CD devices (my experience) it is easy to locate that single birdsong coming directly from the R channel (and all those between). But the speakers dont vanish, and nor should they.
strangely enough the birdsong i mentioned was an ambiophonic or binaural recording.
I have had this experience all the time for many years now.
Some other people too.
This thread is all about it: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121385-loudspeakers-room-system.html
and also this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/10962-stereolith-loudspeakers-question.html
and this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/200040-stereophonic-sound-single-loudspeaker.html
and this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/36254-try-ambiophonics-your-speakers.html
and this one too:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/105136-putting-science-back-into-loudspeakers.html
Some other people too.
This thread is all about it: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121385-loudspeakers-room-system.html
and also this one: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/10962-stereolith-loudspeakers-question.html
and this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/200040-stereophonic-sound-single-loudspeaker.html
and this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/36254-try-ambiophonics-your-speakers.html
and this one too:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/105136-putting-science-back-into-loudspeakers.html
Just to toughen up the requirements a bit, we won't count Ambiophonics and the like, and require at least, say 75%, of the treble content to come from a driver which is nominally directly facing the conventional listening postion ... 
Also, no special, "doctored" recordings - has to "work" with conventional tracks ...
Frank
Also, no special, "doctored" recordings - has to "work" with conventional tracks ...
Frank
then nothing beats a flooder ie. an up-firing floor coupled speaker (UFFC)
and require at least, say 75%, of the treble content to come from a driver which is nominally directly facing the conventional listening postion ...
why? what's the point of such a requirement?
Because, in my experience, poor qualities in the treble reproduction are the primary cause for the "illusion" to fail. If you have the treble transducer facing away this can hide a multitude of sins, because the direct sound of the driver "working" is not heard.
If with your flooder (nice term,
), you stood next to it so the treble content was firing directly at your head, would it be obvious where the speaker was ...? Frank
It's not an uncommon goal. Even sound who's image focusses on the very space taken by the speaker itself can be made to sound as if the speaker is just a vision with no substance, and the sound is hanging there on it's own.
You can stare at the speaker and try to identify its existence, listening for some kind of sound signature and cast your mind how you will, but it actually looks as if it has nothing to do with the sound.
This doesn't happen with most ordinary speakers.
You can stare at the speaker and try to identify its existence, listening for some kind of sound signature and cast your mind how you will, but it actually looks as if it has nothing to do with the sound.
This doesn't happen with most ordinary speakers.
If with your flooder (nice term,
well, actually it's not "mine": http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121385-loudspeakers-room-system-24.html#post1599729
you stood next to it so the treble content was firing directly at your head, would it be obvious where the speaker was ...?
it would and it shoud
that's how our auditory system works - it's the psychophysics of sound
exactly.well, actually it's not "mine": http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121385-loudspeakers-room-system-24.html#post1599729
I agree with these posts. Depth of a RHS heavy chirp or trill is my interpretation of what i hear in my example, be it ambio or stereo. That is to say the image is further or nearer than the tweeter, but the direction of origin is obvious.
it would and it shoud
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Cheers, Alex ...
I would suggest that people who haven't done so, go check what Pano actually described in the link I gave in the first post -- in essence he was able to walk almost completely around a front facing horn speaker, and even directly in front of it he was unable to mentally connect the soundscape he was hearing with the driver directly facing him: this is the level of "invisibility" I'm talking about ...
Frank
I would suggest that people who haven't done so, go check what Pano actually described in the link I gave in the first post -- in essence he was able to walk almost completely around a front facing horn speaker, and even directly in front of it he was unable to mentally connect the soundscape he was hearing with the driver directly facing him: this is the level of "invisibility" I'm talking about ...
Frank
If you found your speakers turning invisible at some point, does it automatically mean that they were 'right'? I think we can dial up some pretty convincing illusions on demand if we play with home theatre surround sound, for example, but no one would claim it was a holographic reproduction of a concert hall. However, if there is no other information available, the listener could easily be forgiven for thinking that it was. You can even create a surround sound illusion from two speakers using DSP, and I think I've even done something similar accidentally when messing up the phase correction with my active crossover DSP. The effect can be a very convincing 'ambience' from two speakers, but at the cost of destroying the intentional dryness of a recording. However, without knowing how it should sound, the listener might think they've struck audio gold, only to find it an unsatisfying system ultimately. And I presume that by playing with room treatments, dipoles, open baffle speakers, side-firing woofers and all those tricks, it might be possible to create some sort of illusion without DSP, but again, would it necessarily be 'right' in the long run?
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