Hi Everyone,
Looking at some input and advice on my next project.
Here is where I am at now and what I am dealing with!
Room is 11m(35ft) x 6m(19ft) x 3.8m(12ft) cielings. The room is actual twice as wide (12m) but as it is a loft I will making rooms in the future...
I listen to mostly classical, jazz, acousitc music, some pop but not often and not the priority. no doof doof... I am in an apartment so no crazy bass required.. rolling off after 40-50hz. I don't listen at high spl. basically something that has ease at lower levels and nice dynamics and smooth musical bass.
I can make the boxes pretty much any size I want. I have been reading JRKO's thread and find it awesome! And was thinking something similar. ie
faitalpro 15h510 in an onken or a large closed enclosure. Crossing to this around 800hz Horns
would be active and biamped.
I am seriously open to any suggestions. Like i said they can be refrigerators if needed!
all the best
A
Looking at some input and advice on my next project.
Here is where I am at now and what I am dealing with!
Room is 11m(35ft) x 6m(19ft) x 3.8m(12ft) cielings. The room is actual twice as wide (12m) but as it is a loft I will making rooms in the future...
I listen to mostly classical, jazz, acousitc music, some pop but not often and not the priority. no doof doof... I am in an apartment so no crazy bass required.. rolling off after 40-50hz. I don't listen at high spl. basically something that has ease at lower levels and nice dynamics and smooth musical bass.
I can make the boxes pretty much any size I want. I have been reading JRKO's thread and find it awesome! And was thinking something similar. ie
faitalpro 15h510 in an onken or a large closed enclosure. Crossing to this around 800hz Horns
would be active and biamped.
I am seriously open to any suggestions. Like i said they can be refrigerators if needed!
all the best
A
Hmmm really no responses? I guess I'll keep reading..
I did mean the 15fh510..
If I need to give more information i can.
I wanted to keep the crossover below and out of the region 1kHz - 7kHz.
I thought the faitalpro would be good up until then from 40Hz. Just need some pointers on the enclosure.
I did mean the 15fh510..
If I need to give more information i can.
I wanted to keep the crossover below and out of the region 1kHz - 7kHz.
I thought the faitalpro would be good up until then from 40Hz. Just need some pointers on the enclosure.
I was crunching numbers on a high efficiency Two-way.........trying to get a suitably large format horn....my idea was to use the Celestion TE-BS-18500 18" driver, 97Db,Fs 36.4....Qts .5 EBP 60.6 Vas 6.18 cu/ft. $120 USD.
In an enclosure of 10.5 Cu ft for a Fb of 38 Hz......so with one inch MDF, 22.856"X28.277"X35.106" .........rather large, still needing to get up on stands toward ear level. With a front baffle of 22", a nice large horn can be set there...one that can reach down to 800 Hz or so...
It would make for an impressive sight with an eighteen on a 22"X35" front baffle, up on stands....the two 4.25X6" ports on the back baffle.
_______________________________________________________Rick.......
In an enclosure of 10.5 Cu ft for a Fb of 38 Hz......so with one inch MDF, 22.856"X28.277"X35.106" .........rather large, still needing to get up on stands toward ear level. With a front baffle of 22", a nice large horn can be set there...one that can reach down to 800 Hz or so...
It would make for an impressive sight with an eighteen on a 22"X35" front baffle, up on stands....the two 4.25X6" ports on the back baffle.
_______________________________________________________Rick.......
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Already did a BIB with a fostex fe108 sigma and a basic open baffle beastie with a sica driver handling above 200hz (I know not right for OB) and an eminence alpha doing the rest.. I want something a bit more easy, sound wise...
I like the Altec 816 but I am not sure the faitalpro would work...
also thought about the Big Bang project on Stereo Lab
Anyway copying is fine...but wanted to try learning something myself, just need a push in the right direction.
I like the Altec 816 but I am not sure the faitalpro would work...
also thought about the Big Bang project on Stereo Lab
Anyway copying is fine...but wanted to try learning something myself, just need a push in the right direction.
I would just pick one of the small ScanSpeak tower systems, maybe ZAPH designed, or one of the D'Apolitto SEAS designs. Then try and figure out what you would do better. Not an easy task. Several if us have been toying with the idea of small ( 6.5 inch or so) three ways to see if that can step it up a notch. If you have room for BIG speakers, have you thought about OB? Seems to have a following.
Under the constraint's posed this is what I'd do:
Top portion with 3 inch spacing between horn portion and top of woofer box (aimed down at listener):
Fiberglass SEOS-24? - SEOS? - Fiberglass - The SEOS? Waveguides DIY Sound Group
with:
ND1460A - HF Neodymium Driver
(..I'd do a round-over "surround" for the waveguide to emulate the box below it.)
Midrange/Bass box:
x2 wired in parallel "open back" ("pipe" vent stuffed with straws) on 30 inch wide baffle with large radius roundover "edges":
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_8B.pdf
1 bandpass woofer connected in parallel to the mids, porting at floor in front. About 2 cubic feet for the front chamber and 5 cubic feet for the rear, tuning freq. around 80 Hz with about 8 2 inch diameter vents:
15MB606 - Very High Output MB Ferrite Driver
Top portion with 3 inch spacing between horn portion and top of woofer box (aimed down at listener):
Fiberglass SEOS-24? - SEOS? - Fiberglass - The SEOS? Waveguides DIY Sound Group
with:
ND1460A - HF Neodymium Driver
(..I'd do a round-over "surround" for the waveguide to emulate the box below it.)
Midrange/Bass box:
x2 wired in parallel "open back" ("pipe" vent stuffed with straws) on 30 inch wide baffle with large radius roundover "edges":
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_8B.pdf
1 bandpass woofer connected in parallel to the mids, porting at floor in front. About 2 cubic feet for the front chamber and 5 cubic feet for the rear, tuning freq. around 80 Hz with about 8 2 inch diameter vents:
15MB606 - Very High Output MB Ferrite Driver
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These suggestions are all over the place.
My own suggestion is that if the OP likes the sound of horn loaded designs, he should look at the threads over at the Klipsch site for the "Jubilee".
Horns are not for everyone and they have their own set of strengths and weaknesses. If you like them, then the Jubilees are a very good example of their strengths.
If you have never heard a fully horn loaded system, then ask for a demo of a Klipschorn. It is a fair example of the trade-offs and there are plenty of them around. Ask someone over there for an invite.
My own suggestion is that if the OP likes the sound of horn loaded designs, he should look at the threads over at the Klipsch site for the "Jubilee".
Horns are not for everyone and they have their own set of strengths and weaknesses. If you like them, then the Jubilees are a very good example of their strengths.
If you have never heard a fully horn loaded system, then ask for a demo of a Klipschorn. It is a fair example of the trade-offs and there are plenty of them around. Ask someone over there for an invite.
Although I am not a fan of horns for home use, I understand their attraction. I would not want to scare someone with having them listen to an old K-horn. They may never think of a horn again. Maybe listen to a Gedlee. Their top and then a folded bass with a driver designed about 50 years after the K.
3-way vs. 2-way
Given current technology, per driver coverage is about one decade in frequency. This maps the audio spectrum into three segments of 20-200 Hz, 200-2,000 Hz, and 2000 - 20,000 Hz. with some deviation in crossover points made to take advantage of the particular characteristics of the drivers used.
Note that if the system is to reproduce ‘clean' 40-50 Hz. signals, it will require a bandwidth extension to 20 Hz. as well. The room size makes use of an all horn system feasible, and for your application, very desirable. If you crank the volume on any system, you are going to arouse your neighbors, whether low bass is present or not.
Even though, with the exception of the pipe organ and the bass drum, musical instruments do not produce significant energy in the low-bass region, is it important for loudspeakers to have response below 40Hz for two reasons that come to mind.
First, the ambience of large performance spaces will have audible energy content extending down to very low frequencies during an orchestral performance. Good recordings of the music produced will capture this.
Secondly, the work by KEF's, Laurie Fincham [1], has shown that the group delay, due to the speaker's high-pass filter action, can impose audible effects on signals reproduced up as far as the midrange. This degradation can be minimized by designing a loudspeaker to have an a low-bass response extended down as low as possible.
Comments on the frequency range of selected musical instruments follow:
Male voice: A good bass singer can produce a strong D2 at 73.4Hz, but most energy will be concentrated two to four octaves above this, due to the resonant structure of the throat, mouth and nasal cavity.
Cello: C on the bottom string (C2) is 65.4Hz.
String Bass: Most acoustic double-basses can reach low C3 at 32.7Hz. A typical acoustic jazz-bass limit is low E3 at 41.2Hz. A Fender Bass limit is also 41.2Hz, but most of the energy produced is concentrated in the 2nd harmonic at 82.4Hz.
Bassoon: Like all reed instruments, it produces very little energy at its lowest fundamental of 58 Hz. For example, the fundamental of a 98 Hz bassoon note, is typically 20dB lower in level than its 7th harmonic at 686Hz. For the Contrabassoon, the depths plunged by this leviathan reach around 29Hz.
B-Flat Bass Clarinet: The low E (actually D2) note at 73.4Hz. is only surpassed by the very rare Contrabass Clarinet that reaches an octave lower to 36.7Hz.
Pipe Organ: Commonly reaches low notes in the 25-32 Hz range and very occasionally to 16.35Hz. (but a reed stop with very little energy produced at this frequency).
Bass Trombone: With its slide fully extended, this instrument can produce a G-Flat4 ‘fart’ at around 23Hz.
Tuba: As the fat man of the orchestra, this instrument reaches down to a F4 note, which two tones below a standard concert grand piano.
Grand Piano: Standard concert grand goes down to A4 at 27.5Hz; for the big Bosendorfers, subtract ten or so Hz more.
Kick Drum: This drum produces a broad span of frequencies with very high energy levels produced in the range between 30 and 80Hz. Live levels can reach 127dB, which is equivalent to 25 acoustic watts, or a typical box loudspeaker being driven by a 3kW amplifier! Rock and jazz bass-drum output tends to have a higher frequency range than the orchestral kick drum.
Timpani: Energy tends to be centered in the upper-bass and lower-midrange, between 75Hz and 200Hz.
Piccolo: Hardly a bass instrument, but ties with the piano at producing the highest fundamental tone of any instrument, at 4698.6Hz. A good soprano vocalist is struggling above 1 kHz; violin fundamentals reach up to about 2.8kHz; some organ pipes go as high as 8kHz, but these are never used alone, only as added harmonic coloring to other lower notes.
Hope this information may help you.
Regards,
WHG
Reference:
[1] Laurie Fincham,
"The Subjective Importance of Uniform Group Delay at Low Frequencies"
Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol.33 No.6, June 1985
Hi Everyone,
Looking at some input and advice on my next project.
Here is where I am at now and what I am dealing with!
Room is 11m(35ft) x 6m(19ft) x 3.8m(12ft) cielings. The room is actual twice as wide (12m) but as it is a loft I will making rooms in the future...
I listen to mostly classical, jazz, acousitc music, some pop but not often and not the priority. no doof doof... I am in an apartment so no crazy bass required.. rolling off after 40-50hz. I don't listen at high spl. basically something that has ease at lower levels and nice dynamics and smooth musical bass.
I can make the boxes pretty much any size I want. I have been reading JRKO's thread and find it awesome! And was thinking something similar. ie
faitalpro 15h510 in an onken or a large closed enclosure. Crossing to this around 800hz Horns
would be active and biamped.
I am seriously open to any suggestions. Like i said they can be refrigerators if needed!
all the best
A
Given current technology, per driver coverage is about one decade in frequency. This maps the audio spectrum into three segments of 20-200 Hz, 200-2,000 Hz, and 2000 - 20,000 Hz. with some deviation in crossover points made to take advantage of the particular characteristics of the drivers used.
Note that if the system is to reproduce ‘clean' 40-50 Hz. signals, it will require a bandwidth extension to 20 Hz. as well. The room size makes use of an all horn system feasible, and for your application, very desirable. If you crank the volume on any system, you are going to arouse your neighbors, whether low bass is present or not.
Even though, with the exception of the pipe organ and the bass drum, musical instruments do not produce significant energy in the low-bass region, is it important for loudspeakers to have response below 40Hz for two reasons that come to mind.
First, the ambience of large performance spaces will have audible energy content extending down to very low frequencies during an orchestral performance. Good recordings of the music produced will capture this.
Secondly, the work by KEF's, Laurie Fincham [1], has shown that the group delay, due to the speaker's high-pass filter action, can impose audible effects on signals reproduced up as far as the midrange. This degradation can be minimized by designing a loudspeaker to have an a low-bass response extended down as low as possible.
Comments on the frequency range of selected musical instruments follow:
Male voice: A good bass singer can produce a strong D2 at 73.4Hz, but most energy will be concentrated two to four octaves above this, due to the resonant structure of the throat, mouth and nasal cavity.
Cello: C on the bottom string (C2) is 65.4Hz.
String Bass: Most acoustic double-basses can reach low C3 at 32.7Hz. A typical acoustic jazz-bass limit is low E3 at 41.2Hz. A Fender Bass limit is also 41.2Hz, but most of the energy produced is concentrated in the 2nd harmonic at 82.4Hz.
Bassoon: Like all reed instruments, it produces very little energy at its lowest fundamental of 58 Hz. For example, the fundamental of a 98 Hz bassoon note, is typically 20dB lower in level than its 7th harmonic at 686Hz. For the Contrabassoon, the depths plunged by this leviathan reach around 29Hz.
B-Flat Bass Clarinet: The low E (actually D2) note at 73.4Hz. is only surpassed by the very rare Contrabass Clarinet that reaches an octave lower to 36.7Hz.
Pipe Organ: Commonly reaches low notes in the 25-32 Hz range and very occasionally to 16.35Hz. (but a reed stop with very little energy produced at this frequency).
Bass Trombone: With its slide fully extended, this instrument can produce a G-Flat4 ‘fart’ at around 23Hz.
Tuba: As the fat man of the orchestra, this instrument reaches down to a F4 note, which two tones below a standard concert grand piano.
Grand Piano: Standard concert grand goes down to A4 at 27.5Hz; for the big Bosendorfers, subtract ten or so Hz more.
Kick Drum: This drum produces a broad span of frequencies with very high energy levels produced in the range between 30 and 80Hz. Live levels can reach 127dB, which is equivalent to 25 acoustic watts, or a typical box loudspeaker being driven by a 3kW amplifier! Rock and jazz bass-drum output tends to have a higher frequency range than the orchestral kick drum.
Timpani: Energy tends to be centered in the upper-bass and lower-midrange, between 75Hz and 200Hz.
Piccolo: Hardly a bass instrument, but ties with the piano at producing the highest fundamental tone of any instrument, at 4698.6Hz. A good soprano vocalist is struggling above 1 kHz; violin fundamentals reach up to about 2.8kHz; some organ pipes go as high as 8kHz, but these are never used alone, only as added harmonic coloring to other lower notes.
Hope this information may help you.
Regards,
WHG
Reference:
[1] Laurie Fincham,
"The Subjective Importance of Uniform Group Delay at Low Frequencies"
Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Vol.33 No.6, June 1985
WHG,
That is a great and useful post!
I am an Opera singer myself (tenor)...yes that is my day and night job... so I have got a pretttty good idea of where stuff lies in the Orchestra etc. But I gotta say awesome info on the different frequencies (don't even start on the different Baroque pitches!).. I have a rather good set of ears. I hear damn SMPS's and TV's (tube ones) make me crazy...now, some of the damn efficiency globes are 'peeping'..
I quite liked OB's but even though I have a large space, I want something a bit more sculptural... and yes my first thought was a full horn loaded thing like John Inlow has... GREAT blog by the way! inlowsound.com
Couple of Tapped horn subs until a 80-400 midbass then 400- 4000 then tweeter..But thats a 4 way and the x-over situation seems hideous... Which was why I was thinking 2 way with a large Bass - mid cab and then a horn with a BMC Coax CD on top.
I will check out the Klipsch cabs!
Not afraid of a bit of woodwork! Sharing a workshop with neighbours!
Cheers everyone!
That is a great and useful post!
I am an Opera singer myself (tenor)...yes that is my day and night job... so I have got a pretttty good idea of where stuff lies in the Orchestra etc. But I gotta say awesome info on the different frequencies (don't even start on the different Baroque pitches!
).. I have a rather good set of ears. I hear damn SMPS's and TV's (tube ones) make me crazy...now, some of the damn efficiency globes are 'peeping'..I quite liked OB's but even though I have a large space, I want something a bit more sculptural... and yes my first thought was a full horn loaded thing like John Inlow has... GREAT blog by the way! inlowsound.com
Couple of Tapped horn subs until a 80-400 midbass then 400- 4000 then tweeter..But thats a 4 way and the x-over situation seems hideous... Which was why I was thinking 2 way with a large Bass - mid cab and then a horn with a BMC Coax CD on top.
I will check out the Klipsch cabs!
Not afraid of a bit of woodwork! Sharing a workshop with neighbours!
Cheers everyone!
Having looked at my longwinded & winding thread may you should look at 3way for a room that size.
That or buy some of these 15 Cell Multicell Horns for JBL,Beyma,Altec, | eBay and a really good CD driver to cover from 500hz upwards. Then maybe a pair of 15's per side
The 'cells should paint the sound everywhere in that auditorium sized room you have!
That or buy some of these 15 Cell Multicell Horns for JBL,Beyma,Altec, | eBay and a really good CD driver to cover from 500hz upwards. Then maybe a pair of 15's per side
The 'cells should paint the sound everywhere in that auditorium sized room you have!
Ohhhh yeah!
I wonder if there are plans for those horns! Would love to have a shot at building those suckers. (second thoughts ugh...no look at the curved bits!) 320 pounds for that amount of work...man times are tough! meaning alot of work for not much that he's asking...
Yeah... maybe a three way is better. I was thinking a three way in any case... 40- 400 (or 800 if possible but I think not..) then 400 - 4000 then 4000 up... really want the bottom and mid sorted until 4000Hz after that the options seem less costly if you stuff it up! ie horns drivers etc. are all by nature cheaper due to sheer size..unless going crazy with TAD's
Those Klipsch Jubilee's look awesome... Anyone heard them? ( I mean in relation to other stuff)... I always read; "... or... blows klipsch out of the water..."
I will have to read more about them..
Cheers
A
I wonder if there are plans for those horns! Would love to have a shot at building those suckers. (second thoughts ugh...no look at the curved bits!) 320 pounds for that amount of work...man times are tough! meaning alot of work for not much that he's asking...
Yeah... maybe a three way is better. I was thinking a three way in any case... 40- 400 (or 800 if possible but I think not..) then 400 - 4000 then 4000 up... really want the bottom and mid sorted until 4000Hz after that the options seem less costly if you stuff it up! ie horns drivers etc. are all by nature cheaper due to sheer size..unless going crazy with TAD's
Those Klipsch Jubilee's look awesome... Anyone heard them? ( I mean in relation to other stuff)... I always read; "... or... blows klipsch out of the water..."
I will have to read more about them..
Cheers
A
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Keith, the guy who makes the horns is great - a real Gentleman. Minimal outlay for quality - he enjoys making them and satisfying our dreams at reasonable cost. He ships to Japan, Oz, US & Europe so they can't be bad
A pair of FaitalPro CDs like the HF144 1.4" will do 650hz upwards. Thats gotta line up with a 3way cost of good mid & HF drivers needed to cover the same range + the crossover components
A pair of FaitalPro CDs like the HF144 1.4" will do 650hz upwards. Thats gotta line up with a 3way cost of good mid & HF drivers needed to cover the same range + the crossover components
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