Although the other thread started with "can a PC burn in", I (feebly) attempted to re-direct the thread several times into a discussion of can a pc affect sound..That is of course a necessary pre-requisite to the issue, as if the pc cannot, then something such as burn in certainly couldn't. (note, I have seen no scientific reason which makes any sense to describe any mechanism that would do so, and will not even consider that within this thread, until such time as someone has tested and found a mechanism to explain sound change..
From my posting on this topic within the other thread..I describe a method to look for it..Anybody interested in discussing it?
I hope this thread can remain focussed on topic; the other did not..
Cheers, John
From my posting on this topic within the other thread..I describe a method to look for it..Anybody interested in discussing it?
I hope this thread can remain focussed on topic; the other did not..
Cheers, John
li_gangyi said:
It is a very easy thing to produce a loop voltage within even a 535 mcm conductor. It isn't a conductor size/IR drop issue I speak of..it's intercept of time varying flux within the loop.
What I detailed was not a hearing test, but an electrical one..to see if a result was even there, and if so, if it large enough to be of significance w/r to the audio signal. (not ppm, but percents..)
These are 535 mcm cables, BTW:
Cheers, John
Attachments
I thought I'd personally heard a lot of improvements when changing or switching power cables...
Too bad that when it wasn't me doing the changing I wasn't able to tell if anything had changed.
I've conducted a lot of testing on this issue: once you take away the subjective factor, i.e. you do a proper "statistically blind" testing, I dare and double dare anybody in the world to show me that there's a difference in passing from cable A to cable B (provided neither one is grossly inadequate).
Again, I'm talking about a scientifically controlled environment, NOT you personally switching cables. The human mind is a very powerful generator of illusions...
Too bad that when it wasn't me doing the changing I wasn't able to tell if anything had changed.
I've conducted a lot of testing on this issue: once you take away the subjective factor, i.e. you do a proper "statistically blind" testing, I dare and double dare anybody in the world to show me that there's a difference in passing from cable A to cable B (provided neither one is grossly inadequate).
Again, I'm talking about a scientifically controlled environment, NOT you personally switching cables. The human mind is a very powerful generator of illusions...
On my Denon PMA 1080 sound changed quite a lot, for my CD player it didn't that much.
Still replacing "non audio grade" wire with shielded wire like the "conradsel" cable on www.platenspeler.com sounds like a reasonable change.
Still replacing "non audio grade" wire with shielded wire like the "conradsel" cable on www.platenspeler.com sounds like a reasonable change.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Re: Sorry to be off topic
We find that a 30 kiloamp burn in during cryogenic treatment helps..and, as a side benefit, everybody's arthritis goes away for a week.
On the down side, all the computer monitors change color, so we have to switch to plasma's.
Would you believe the physicist guys look for 1 microvolt signals in that mess of 535 mcm cables while they're pushing tens of kiloamps?? We have to use really tightly twisted pairs; shields at 5 to 7 tesla are rather useless, and reduction of pickup loops is critical.
Cheers, John
Da5id4Vz said:
We find that a 30 kiloamp burn in during cryogenic treatment helps..and, as a side benefit, everybody's arthritis goes away for a week.
On the down side, all the computer monitors change color, so we have to switch to plasma's.
Would you believe the physicist guys look for 1 microvolt signals in that mess of 535 mcm cables while they're pushing tens of kiloamps?? We have to use really tightly twisted pairs; shields at 5 to 7 tesla are rather useless, and reduction of pickup loops is critical.
Cheers, John
The man speaks truth. Do a proper blind test and find out, mrfeedback. Do it enough times and I guarantee you'll be right 50% of the time, in line with statistical probability.
This is not to say no differences ever exist in any cable in any application. Only there are no measurable or audible differences for PC's running 50-60Hz and a couple of amps. This is not a K4 supercon application like my MRI scanners use: niobium-titanium alloy coil using copper (yes, copper) as an insulator at 4K...
MR scanner will do that for you too...
I should know better ....
This is yet another one of those threads where the opposing camps will never see eye-2-eye.
As Steve suggests ever so subtly ..... if you use item 'x' and you hear a difference/improvement, then it is real (for you).
There is no point in the sceptics among us saying, "no, you are not hearing this", because this is simply not true, the person in question hears what they hear, we must just learn to accept this.
However, given there are a large number of DIYer's out there without the finances for multi-thousand$ systems, I think there is some obligation to guide members asking questions toward those areas where maximal benefit for $-invested might be found.
So ..... to the question ...... can a PC significantly affect sound?
1. Let's assume what reaches your house is perfect sine-wave, in phase power (highly unlikely actually, but then).
2. Let's forget we are going to rectify this to DC.
3. From your meter box you have maybe 15-20 meters of standard house-hold electrical cable. This has all the faults "claimed" in standard power cords. I expect the vast majority have little knowledge of what is actually in their ceilings.
4. On the end of this 10+m "low audio quality" cable we are going to place 1-2m of either standard power cord, or 0.5-1.0m of "audiophile power cable".
Hmmmmm .....
All logic would suggest that any real difference here is extraordinarily small.
For those who hear this difference "clearly" and are pleased with their expenditure, good for you!
For the average DIYer out there, trying to find the best sound from their limited budget, I would strongly suggest that your hard earn't money might be better spent on other parts of your system.
Regards
Mark
This is yet another one of those threads where the opposing camps will never see eye-2-eye.
As Steve suggests ever so subtly ..... if you use item 'x' and you hear a difference/improvement, then it is real (for you).
There is no point in the sceptics among us saying, "no, you are not hearing this", because this is simply not true, the person in question hears what they hear, we must just learn to accept this.
However, given there are a large number of DIYer's out there without the finances for multi-thousand$ systems, I think there is some obligation to guide members asking questions toward those areas where maximal benefit for $-invested might be found.
So ..... to the question ...... can a PC significantly affect sound?
1. Let's assume what reaches your house is perfect sine-wave, in phase power (highly unlikely actually, but then).
2. Let's forget we are going to rectify this to DC.
3. From your meter box you have maybe 15-20 meters of standard house-hold electrical cable. This has all the faults "claimed" in standard power cords. I expect the vast majority have little knowledge of what is actually in their ceilings.
4. On the end of this 10+m "low audio quality" cable we are going to place 1-2m of either standard power cord, or 0.5-1.0m of "audiophile power cable".
Hmmmmm .....
All logic would suggest that any real difference here is extraordinarily small.
For those who hear this difference "clearly" and are pleased with their expenditure, good for you!
For the average DIYer out there, trying to find the best sound from their limited budget, I would strongly suggest that your hard earn't money might be better spent on other parts of your system.
Regards
Mark
Subjective world!
I fully agree with Mefinnins opening statement: if you can "hear" it (that is, if your brain is convinced that a difference exists) then it DOES sound differently, albeit in a subjective way.
I won't try to change anybody's beliefs as long as anybody won't try to change mine or think that I have lousy hearing because I don't PERCEIVE the same things they do.
The crux of the point here is PERCEPTION: given a phenomenon that logically, practically and scientifically cannot be substantiated (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, mind you), some of us elect to "trust" our brains, whilst others don't.
When I first started to experiment with cables, I DID PERCEIVE DIFFERENCES. Oddly enough, it was always the expensive, good-looking stuff that "sounded" better. The industrial-grade 3 x 6mm^2 (3 wires each 6 square mm section) cable didn't seem to sound as good as some exotic, hi-tech looking cable. Yet, from a scientific theory standpoint the two should have been pretty much equivalent.
However, when I tried to tell which one was which having somebody else switching the cables unbeknown to me, the differences disappeared or, even worse, seemed to be randomly distributed.
In the end, it boils down to how and how much we're willing to pay for satisfying our brain, the real MASTER of the world (everything we know about what surrounds us is mediated by him): some of us might spend $5 for a joint, some others might spend $500 for a power cable.
I fully agree with Mefinnins opening statement: if you can "hear" it (that is, if your brain is convinced that a difference exists) then it DOES sound differently, albeit in a subjective way.
I won't try to change anybody's beliefs as long as anybody won't try to change mine or think that I have lousy hearing because I don't PERCEIVE the same things they do.
The crux of the point here is PERCEPTION: given a phenomenon that logically, practically and scientifically cannot be substantiated (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, mind you), some of us elect to "trust" our brains, whilst others don't.
When I first started to experiment with cables, I DID PERCEIVE DIFFERENCES. Oddly enough, it was always the expensive, good-looking stuff that "sounded" better. The industrial-grade 3 x 6mm^2 (3 wires each 6 square mm section) cable didn't seem to sound as good as some exotic, hi-tech looking cable. Yet, from a scientific theory standpoint the two should have been pretty much equivalent.
However, when I tried to tell which one was which having somebody else switching the cables unbeknown to me, the differences disappeared or, even worse, seemed to be randomly distributed.
In the end, it boils down to how and how much we're willing to pay for satisfying our brain, the real MASTER of the world (everything we know about what surrounds us is mediated by him): some of us might spend $5 for a joint, some others might spend $500 for a power cable.
Konnichiwa,
The simple and authorative answer is: "Absolutely".
I would go further by saying that unless the system is of insufficient sonic transparency the PC MUST make a difference as long as the system uses multiple seperate pieces of equipment, conventionally AC mainspowered (correctly implementd switched mode supplies CAN minimise the issues) and designed to conform with modern electrical safety standards and lacking transformer coupled Inputs/Outputs with the option to insulate the input ground from the piece of equipments chassi ground.
There are many ways in which such sensitivity to Power Cables can be minimised and I would also argue that if the equipment was truely competently designed Power Cables SHOULD not make any difference, but to achieve this approaches are required that are not common outside serious wideband measurement and similar gear and which are sadly rarely to never found in audio gear.
Sayonara
sully said:
The simple and authorative answer is: "Absolutely".
I would go further by saying that unless the system is of insufficient sonic transparency the PC MUST make a difference as long as the system uses multiple seperate pieces of equipment, conventionally AC mainspowered (correctly implementd switched mode supplies CAN minimise the issues) and designed to conform with modern electrical safety standards and lacking transformer coupled Inputs/Outputs with the option to insulate the input ground from the piece of equipments chassi ground.
There are many ways in which such sensitivity to Power Cables can be minimised and I would also argue that if the equipment was truely competently designed Power Cables SHOULD not make any difference, but to achieve this approaches are required that are not common outside serious wideband measurement and similar gear and which are sadly rarely to never found in audio gear.
Sayonara
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