This all optioned up "hi-end" DAC sells for $43,000 yet measures poorly compared to a well implemented version of the ESS9018 sabre dac. What is even more bazaar is the vendor of this "hi-end" dac slags off the sabre dac as being a mere "consumer grade" dac whatever that means !! But ironically this "consumer grade" dac is being used in the Weiss DAC202 DAC which sells for around 7K and which runs rings around it in the measurement stakes and dare I say it, in the subjective stakes as well !!
Go figure !!
MSB Technology Platinuum DAC
MSB Technology Platinum Data CD IV transport & Diamond DAC IV & D/A converter Measurements | Stereophile.com
Weiss DAC202
Weiss DAC202 FireWire D/A converter Measurements | Stereophile.com
It's just too bad that most of us here on diy can't afford a 43K hi-end dac. We'll just have to settle for a $50 consumer grade dac
Go figure !!
MSB Technology Platinuum DAC
MSB Technology Platinum Data CD IV transport & Diamond DAC IV & D/A converter Measurements | Stereophile.com
Weiss DAC202
Weiss DAC202 FireWire D/A converter Measurements | Stereophile.com
It's just too bad that most of us here on diy can't afford a 43K hi-end dac. We'll just have to settle for a $50 consumer grade dac
Just as someone in the DIY Audio community might prefer handmade Duelund VSFCu-Paper In Oil/CAST capacitor over a mass produced Wima capacitor for their DIY project, or an old coat hanger versus hand braided interconnects who is to say? Someone might make their own FETs starting from a bucket of sand and sell them to any DIY'er who wants to buy it. Who cares? It's their money. There is a market for everything and this is what keeps an free market economy moving.
With the many choices one faces here, DIY Audio isn't a an overly inexpensive hobby either. Depending on how one wants to spend their grocery money or kid's University fund, I am pretty sure most of us can afford a $43k DAC (and the $50 consumer DAC for that matter), and the same person who can afford it, makes it a matter of their choice. Congratulations to them, I hope that they are happy with their purchase.
Personally, I am just glad that there is a choice out there (and I wish I were the one selling this DAC to them).
Is that 'looks' as in appearance or in performance ??
Yes diyer's are build dacs using the "consumer grade" ESS9018 sabre dac so they can be proud of owning something that betters a 43K "hi-end" dac
What about when vendors of hi-end equipment have to resort to mud-slinging and down right misleading comments such as this !! I think people have a right to be informed no matter how much someone is willing to spend on equipment.
What about 32 bit DACs
What about it? Even if given the facts that cut through the mud slinging, misleading comments, and advertising, I am not going to police thier actions or beat myself up because someone wants to say something. Like the Dude says, "That's just like, your opinion, man."
I trust that smart people can separate the lies from the truths and make their own balanced and informed decisions.
Now I don't argue that all the people have the right to be informed... only one thing will remain a true constant; there is a portion of the population who will believe what they want to believe and shovel money towards it (though usually up here we call it, "an election year").
I've saved a lot of money over the years by informing myself before I make a purchase. My first point of call is the internet. Hopefully someone already owns what I am interested in buying and their feedback whether it be positive or negative goes to some length in helping me make a decision before I do my money.
Surely you're not going to tell me that you are going to get an unbiased and objective opinion from a vendor or salesmen ?? Good luck if you believe that.
Honestly, the dudes flogging this gear would give PT Barnum a run for his money !!
I for one can't resist appreciating the irony here. They slag off ESS for being 'only' a 6 bit DAC (true enough as far as it goes) but claim their DAC is a 'true 26 bit DAC' - which the Stereophile measurements you linked to clearly demonstrate is a porky:
All the traces are showing is the level of the 16-bit dither noise; increasing the bit depth to 24 drops the noise floor by an extraordinary 27dB or so. This implies a resolution of close to 21 bits...
So 'true 26 bit DAC' in MSB marketing parlance actually translates in engineering speak to 'almost a 21 bit DAC'
<edit> Have you done the subjective comparison with the Weiss yourself or heard about someone who has? I'd be interested in their findings.
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I for one can't resist appreciating the irony here. They slag off ESS for being 'only' a 6 bit DAC (true enough as far as it goes) but claim their DAC is a 'true 26 bit DAC' - which the Stereophile measurements you linked to clearly demonstrate is a porky:
All the traces are showing is the level of the 16-bit dither noise; increasing the bit depth to 24 drops the noise floor by an extraordinary 27dB or so. This implies a resolution of close to 21 bits...
So 'true 26 bit DAC' in MSB marketing parlance actually translates in engineering speak to 'almost a 21 bit DAC'
<edit> Have you done the subjective comparison with the Weiss yourself or heard about someone who has? I'd be interested in their findings.
So the ESS is only a 6 bit dac but measures significantly better than their 26 bit ladder dac !! What does that say about their dac ??
LOLYes I know someone who had access to a Weiss dac but the unit was faulty so couldn't do any valid measurements
The intermodulation results in the Stereophile measurements report speak volumes about their 'true 26 (but somewhere it says there are 4 such DACs inside which mean its actually 27) bit DAC'. Their digital filter no.3 is a complete joke, but beyond that even with a proper filter the intermod performance sucks big-time for such a high priced DAC.
See that is the great thing right there, I never said I would or wouldn't get information, opinions, and reviews from others. I said something about smart people, something about the right to be informed, something about free markets, and something about people still being ignorant in the face of facts and lies (okay, not exactly in those words, but I hope you know what I mean).
At $43,000, I personally would tend to be more careful if it is something that I can fit into a backpack. Without the reviews, I probably wouldn't because I don't believe I would be that gullible and/or profligate (my threshold on spending on a DAC is a lower). But with that said, there are others who don't care about the opinions, facts, or reviews -- they got money to burn and you can't argue with that.
I just like the free market economy and if someone wants to spend money on a $43,000 piece of audio jewelry... well they want to spend $43,000.
Phineas Taylor Barnum, wanted to get rich and by most accounts he did get rich -- he was the king of the circus. People beat down his door to get in on the action of mermaids, bearded ladies, and other oddities of nature. Mermaids don't exist and you can tell everyone, but people will still pay up to see and experience it. PT was also a philanthropist, I've been to Tufts and I got to say, not bad for a University.
+1 for the choice but seriously you could hold up your head in public with such poor measurements at the price?
w.r.t. to the holding my head up in public, measurements, price... with my conscience, most likely not (I could not make it as an evangelist, politician, or lawyer).
However, I would like to give it a try but with either a reasonable price (with equally reasonable and logical markup) or better output (to justify the price it had better have some gold and platinum in it), just to see because everyone has start somewhere.
In the conclusion of the Stereophile review ...
Frank
That's what the $43,000 delivers ... so is the buyer going to be the slightest bit concerned about the minor lapses in some measurements? From my POV, the key thing is that a hell of the seemingly minor, subtle, quality destroying issues seem to have been addressed, through one means or another, and that's really what this unit delivers. Yes, it shouldn't take that amount of money to get that quality of sound, but it serves as a proof of concept as to what digital should normally sound like ...
Frank
Aaaah measurements versus the ear
They can only teach you so much in school, there is only time enough in school to teach measurements only, then they release the engineers armed with their scopes . There is only so much that can be packed in a college course text book that is why in times past there were apprenticeships so that the professional could pass on the secrets of the trade to his chosen one or ones
They can only teach you so much in school, there is only time enough in school to teach measurements only, then they release the engineers armed with their scopes
. There is only so much that can be packed in a college course text book that is why in times past there were apprenticeships so that the professional could pass on the secrets of the trade to his chosen one or ones
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Obviously not or they'd not be the buyer
But I reckon a few potential buyers would be put off (I'm not a potential buyer myself). If I were in the market for this DAC I'd also be put off that there's not really very much clear water in the subjective review between this DAC and the (over 20dB cheaper) Ayre QB9.Yep, agreed. I plan for my own design to deliver better IMD measurements and at least equal sound at a much lower price-point. A guy's gotta dream right?
Aaaah measurements versus the ear
They can only teach you so much in school, there is only time enough in school to teach measurements only, then they release the engineers armed with their scopes
That is nonsense.
The problem is the claims made by msb are of a technical nature and how they relate to sound quality. The issue is the technical claims don't stack up against the measured performance and therefore can't be as good as what they make them out to be.
For example their $10K Femto clock upgrade included in the review is supposed to reduce jitter (an engineering spec that can be measured) more than anyone else's clock and yet the $50 consumer grade sabre dac in the Weiss runs rings around them in terms of measured performance. According to msb's own words this should translate into better sound quality because reduced jitter is better isn't it
forget the subjective vs objective waffle, never gets anywhere; but if someone is going to sell a 43K dac and call it the Elite Super Platinum Reference shiny 'True 26bit DAC', it just better deliver 26bits… which it clearly doesnt, along with some worrying other IMD effects, weird digital filter choices and spurious PSU noise. Seriously a less than perfectly clean PSU on a completely separate 2 box 43K dac is beyond stupid.
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