Hi all,
Apologies for another thread touching on full range/Fostex/HT and the like. I have a few questions about modelling the FF85WK and what to expect.
As background, I've been reading for a while and figuring out what to build for a new project. I've built a couple of guitar amps and speakers before, and used to work building and installing car audio systems (although the application of science was somewhat basic where I worked). For my project I'm looking to build four or five speakers for my living room, to cover music, TV, and movies.
One of the main reasons I'm looking to build a set of speakers is that my girlfriend is very fussy about how they look. We currently have a pair of Kef Q35.2 floorstanders in a 2.0 setup, and she hates the way they look. Too big, too impossing, and just and "ugly box". So, the new setup has to be a) signficantly smaller and b) better looking.
The better looking bit is pretty easy; a good friend has a well equipped workshop for woodwork, so making some nice boxes is easy enough.
As far as size goes, I am really intrigued by the small full rangers often talked about, and had started to work on some models and sketches for a FF85WK based speaker. I wasn't sure whether they'd be enough for fronts (with a subwoofer to fill in the lower octaves, and an active crossover to filter low frequencies), or whether I'd use them for surround duties and some larger Fostex (105, or 125 at a push) for the fronts.
Using WinISD pro and the published data from Fostex, I ran a few models for sealed and BR, on the small side and the larger side, various tuning frequencies - but no matter what I do, I see to have the speaker exceeding XMax at around 100-120Hz with less than 1W input. Is this really what I should expect? XMax (and thus rapidly increasing distortion) played full range at barely 85dB?
I was planning on crossing over somewhere between 80 and 120Hz - but wanted to experiment on that point when I've built some prototypes. I know crossing higher would give me more headroom, but I can only run one subwoofer (girlfriend's ruling), and while localization isn't much of an issue at 80Hz (from my own experiments), 100Hz is worse, 120Hz considerably worse, and beyond that... well there's just no point in running one sub crossed at 200Hz in my mind. The results would just be unsatisfactory.
I welcome your thoughts. Thank your for any help and insights!
Apologies for another thread touching on full range/Fostex/HT and the like. I have a few questions about modelling the FF85WK and what to expect.
As background, I've been reading for a while and figuring out what to build for a new project. I've built a couple of guitar amps and speakers before, and used to work building and installing car audio systems (although the application of science was somewhat basic where I worked). For my project I'm looking to build four or five speakers for my living room, to cover music, TV, and movies.
One of the main reasons I'm looking to build a set of speakers is that my girlfriend is very fussy about how they look. We currently have a pair of Kef Q35.2 floorstanders in a 2.0 setup, and she hates the way they look. Too big, too impossing, and just and "ugly box". So, the new setup has to be a) signficantly smaller and b) better looking.
The better looking bit is pretty easy; a good friend has a well equipped workshop for woodwork, so making some nice boxes is easy enough.
As far as size goes, I am really intrigued by the small full rangers often talked about, and had started to work on some models and sketches for a FF85WK based speaker. I wasn't sure whether they'd be enough for fronts (with a subwoofer to fill in the lower octaves, and an active crossover to filter low frequencies), or whether I'd use them for surround duties and some larger Fostex (105, or 125 at a push) for the fronts.
Using WinISD pro and the published data from Fostex, I ran a few models for sealed and BR, on the small side and the larger side, various tuning frequencies - but no matter what I do, I see to have the speaker exceeding XMax at around 100-120Hz with less than 1W input. Is this really what I should expect? XMax (and thus rapidly increasing distortion) played full range at barely 85dB?
I was planning on crossing over somewhere between 80 and 120Hz - but wanted to experiment on that point when I've built some prototypes. I know crossing higher would give me more headroom, but I can only run one subwoofer (girlfriend's ruling), and while localization isn't much of an issue at 80Hz (from my own experiments), 100Hz is worse, 120Hz considerably worse, and beyond that... well there's just no point in running one sub crossed at 200Hz in my mind. The results would just be unsatisfactory.
I welcome your thoughts. Thank your for any help and insights!
Yup. Although see my rant last night about the value (or lack thereof) of Xmax figures. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ry-good-dispersion-high-xmax.html#post3172634
The FF85wk is a reasonably efficient midtweet, like the majority of 3in - 3 1/2in wideband drivers. If you want LF, you will always be better off highpassing it & running dedicated LF support.
That's helpful, thanks guys. I've heard much good about these drivers, but I guess I took the term "full range" a little too literally. It does make me wonder, however, how things like the Blumenstein speakers perform. They look wonderful - but are they very short on headroom?
As an alternative to the larger Fostex (size being an issue) am I likely to have more luck with the small MarkAudio drivers, which have substantially greater XMax? I was leaning towards the Fostex as they're MUCH easier to source in the UK.
As an alternative to the larger Fostex (size being an issue) am I likely to have more luck with the small MarkAudio drivers, which have substantially greater XMax? I was leaning towards the Fostex as they're MUCH easier to source in the UK.
Headroom would be the least of my concerns, since IMO, based on the published data, the FE83En is not suitable for vented boxes. It's not how I'd do one anyway. Clark has his own approach though, and since he has plenty of happy owners & AFAIK never lacks for customers, evidently a lot of people like the way they sound. Fair enough; that's what matters.
For what you want, probably. You can likely get some direct from Mark. Remember what I mentioned about Xmax though. It's a guide, no more, & rarely an on / off switch. You might want to take a gander at the Tang Band range too. They have some solid units.
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Thanks, understood. I'll keep playing with the models and see if I can come up with something that at least looks reasonable on paper, then make a prototype or two.
I had a little play with an SPL metre and my current setup a couple of days ago and that was what prompted me to think about this. 70-80dB was quite a nice listening level, but more energetic music was hitting 90dB without ever feeling loud. I can imagine 95-100dB peaks in movies being not uncommon when I'm in the mood and it's a noisy movie. The FF85WKs won't give me anything like the headroom I need without being crossed far higher than I want (and won't keep up with the subwoofer, either; simulations were showing 103dB plus...)
Yes that is about right. But you have to hear these things, they perform beyond what you'd expect from the sims. Officially we call these computer speakers, but I have seen a lot of tonsils demoing the uFonken as jaws drop -- and it isn't like i have a small room. Adding helper woofers means few apologies for the bass. This combo is quite stunning (lots of room for morphing bass enclosures into something suitable, these are an ML-TL and we worked within the restiction that the helper woofers needed to be the same footprint as the mains.
If you want small you need to be willing to compromise ultimate levels.
If you want more bass, one of the Alpair 6.2 might be a better choice.
A relevant post with more info, links & pics. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/220046-desktop-loudspeaker-design-desires.html#post3173592
dave
I kick myself for not thinking about using my iPhone's Decibel Meter app when I last visited the cinema - even with Industrial grade molded noise blocker ear protection, the sound was beyond comfort, and it'll sure as hell be a long time before I pop another $15 to "enjoy" a THX / IMax experience - (although the Dark Knight, or upcoming Man of Steel are awfully tempting - a true comic book fanboy at heart)
As Dave comments, the little FF85WKs are quite delightful by themselves for nearfield, but HP them and add woofer of your choice, and be prepared for a fun ride. Indeed the funnest part is selecting mid/woofers that blend seamlessly enough to not trip over themselves, and fit the aesthetics of the small enclosure volumes in which the 85WK can thrive. For the little woofer columns shown, we used a pair of Peerless 830870 per box and by using 1/2" BB ply and lots of bracing, were able to match the exact footprint of the little trapezoid boxes.
Wow. Interesting, and raises a point I've pondered for a while. I think the desired playback level is one of the most subjective things about audio. Obviously you don't like it loud. Huh, makes things a lot easier for you
Wow. Interesting, and raises a point I've pondered for a while. I think the desired playback level is one of the most subjective things about audio. Obviously you don't like it loud. Huh, makes things a lot easier for you
Oh, I don't know. I like it loud (I used to play in a metal band!) but I've found some recent cinema trips... Unpleasant. Loud enough to make me wince.
Hence I was thinking about something like the Fostex - nuance and detail, at the expense of ultimate dynamics. But there is a trade off, and I need to find the point I'm comfortable with.
Wow. Interesting, and raises a point I've pondered for a while. I think the desired playback level is one of the most subjective things about audio. Obviously you don't like it loud. Huh, makes things a lot easier for you
the older and decrepit I get, the more I appreciate conserving what remains - that goes for my hearing too
for me at least, the problem with "loud" is that most program material today, whether music on CD, video or cinema is so compressed to attain sustained high volume levels in the hope of creating "intensity of emotional impact", to conform to low resolution formats ( MP3, You-Tube etc), or to squeeze more channels into the same broadcast bandwidth space, that there's not always room for true dynamic range -wherein I find much of the real drama lies
And yet studios have kit that is capable of incredible dynamic range these days, and the Internet makes it easier than ever to distribute 24bit uncompressed files...
Same here. Too loud and compressed, like the "loudness wars" have infiltrated the theater "standard" for sound reproduction. I complained to my wife about this, and her reply was that I'm just an audio snob.
jeff
Seb C,
A couple of random thoughts--feel free to ignore them.
First thought: for high WAF, look at Metronomes. small foot print, slim & tapered.
Second thought: BIB: tall, thin, small foot print. Maybe you could use them as the ends (supports) of an entertainment center. a nice 6" driver like the Fostex FE168eSigma could play pretty loud while also delivering nice articulate sound with a decent amount of bass.
Keep us posted!
Jim
A couple of random thoughts--feel free to ignore them.
First thought: for high WAF, look at Metronomes. small foot print, slim & tapered.
Second thought: BIB: tall, thin, small foot print. Maybe you could use them as the ends (supports) of an entertainment center. a nice 6" driver like the Fostex FE168eSigma could play pretty loud while also delivering nice articulate sound with a decent amount of bass.
Keep us posted!
Jim
Without knowing just how limiting size is for your living quarters, is it really bad enough that you have to look at 3" and 4" drivers? Maybe try playing around with a ~6" in WinISD. These will meet a helper woofer or subwoofer much easier and have better power handling doing so. Have you looke and simulated FF165WK? Only thing is it might need a super-tweeter though, my FF225WK does.
IG
IG
yes, and there's no doubt that some very high quality material of any vintage is available at all resolutions, but it's rather a small percentage of the total stream of content - it seems that regardless of the tools in their kit, the vast majority of "providers" either don't know or care about the listening acuity of that certain percentage of "audio snobs" such as are inclined to bitch about it.
McDonalds hamburgers
but who's gonna give a rat's a$$ about the griping of a bunch of crotchety grey-haired farts like us (60yrs and counting)
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