Hey guys, I am looking to the best one of these Pass Amps to build.
Through my hunting around about the Aleph and F5 I found this website which belongs to someone from these forums....
Aleph-X 100w Amplifier Construction Notes
What I am planning to do is to get either a 2 channel or two monoblocks for the Mains and then do a Class D for the surrounds....at max I'll do one more for the center channel but considering that most of the dynamics come through the mains I dont see it really necessary.
Anyways, I know that you can "tweak" these designs for different amounts of power and I plan to have alot of heatsink space but I am planning to do it in a manner similar to these...
A40 - PROJECT 3
I plan that because I can get alot of area on a design like that and maybe get some small computer fans to blow from the bottom up in a low rpm manner just to help with the temps.....
Anyways, what is the best way to go? How much would it cost for a complete build?
I tried searching but I cant seem to find anything about costs.....I did find one webpage that had a parts list that was $70 but it wasnt complete and I did not know if it was a stereo or monoblock
Also, is it easy to add balanced connections later down the line?
Thanks.
Through my hunting around about the Aleph and F5 I found this website which belongs to someone from these forums....
Aleph-X 100w Amplifier Construction Notes
What I am planning to do is to get either a 2 channel or two monoblocks for the Mains and then do a Class D for the surrounds....at max I'll do one more for the center channel but considering that most of the dynamics come through the mains I dont see it really necessary.
Anyways, I know that you can "tweak" these designs for different amounts of power and I plan to have alot of heatsink space but I am planning to do it in a manner similar to these...
A40 - PROJECT 3
I plan that because I can get alot of area on a design like that and maybe get some small computer fans to blow from the bottom up in a low rpm manner just to help with the temps.....
Anyways, what is the best way to go? How much would it cost for a complete build?
I tried searching but I cant seem to find anything about costs.....I did find one webpage that had a parts list that was $70 but it wasnt complete and I did not know if it was a stereo or monoblock
Also, is it easy to add balanced connections later down the line?
Thanks.
what do you mean? the aleph X is a balanced amp, its the SE inputs that are optional, well it accepts balanced input as its primary input anyway, technically its a balanced single ended amp, but as far as input and output its balanced. I wonder if you understand the circuit? before you even start, the aleph X is one of the harder amps to build and get stable, i would not recommend it to someone as a first high power amp build.
as far as the rest of your questions, you will not find cut and dried answers to any of them, as there are no cut and dried answers to any of them. the cost depends on many many variables that we cannot know and you do not even know yet, particularly since you are talking about a non-standard build. the cost will depend on how many output pairs you use, whether you match them yourself or buy matched and how much you spend on that. how much you spend on casework and power supply, etc etc
asking what one is 'the best' is silly i'm sorry and you have said nothing about the speaker load. I wish you luck, but you have a long long journey ahead; maybe you should stick to something that has a kit available
After that dampner from qusp, here's another opinion.
If you want most watts per $ spent, look elsewhere. Pass diy is an exercise in looking for the best sound and it often doesn't come cheap; cheap being relative.
The aleph amps, F5 and the zen series are all different flavors. What you like may be different. The only constant is a very high quality sound. And in that aspect, the bang for buck is extremely high.
That said, i would advise starting with an F5. Low parts count, PCBs available. Well supported on the forum. Medium heatsinking requirements, relatively speaking.
What are your speakers? How loud do you listen? Oh and don't even think about building more than one. Start with one and then think about it.
If you want most watts per $ spent, look elsewhere. Pass diy is an exercise in looking for the best sound and it often doesn't come cheap; cheap being relative.
The aleph amps, F5 and the zen series are all different flavors. What you like may be different. The only constant is a very high quality sound. And in that aspect, the bang for buck is extremely high.
That said, i would advise starting with an F5. Low parts count, PCBs available. Well supported on the forum. Medium heatsinking requirements, relatively speaking.
What are your speakers? How loud do you listen? Oh and don't even think about building more than one. Start with one and then think about it.
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abeing frugal doesnt mean that I can't afford it. I just like to be educated as much as possible before I jump.
I know that there are other amps to get that offer a high value for the amount of power that you get. However, I also have enough experience in audio to know that it is not necesarily about how much power you have but the quality of power that you have.
Right now I am working on a design of speakers that is 95db 1w/1m goal and will probably surpass that goal by 2db or so from what I have been looking at. 3 way design with a ribbon tweeter and 10" Mid.
Edit: I am also unsure if I am going to be doing an active or passive crossover. I may use a MiniDSP to decide the best points to cross at and make one myself.
There are no clear goals as of yet for speaker load because I am still working on the design but if you would like to know what I am currently running they are SVS SBS-01 which are only 85db sensitive and are 8 ohms.
This amplifier build is also not something that is immediate, I am looking at what to do so I can make my plan and have an estimated cost....nothing that is "in stone" so, for instance, if the majority of you that build an F5 say that you spend $500 per channel then I know to estimate that for 2 monoblocks I should make sure to set aside 1k for each in the future. Right now I am looking at about $600 in drivers for the mains I am working on....may possibly increase.....
I am simply trying to plan a "path" so I know what I am going to do next. I highly doubt that these will cost the same as a store bought brand of course and I can make them look the way I want. I plan to use some VU meters on them too.
I am going to sell one of my cars too to finance so I do not think it is going to be unaffordable...
I know that there are other amps to get that offer a high value for the amount of power that you get. However, I also have enough experience in audio to know that it is not necesarily about how much power you have but the quality of power that you have.
Right now I am working on a design of speakers that is 95db 1w/1m goal and will probably surpass that goal by 2db or so from what I have been looking at. 3 way design with a ribbon tweeter and 10" Mid.
Edit: I am also unsure if I am going to be doing an active or passive crossover. I may use a MiniDSP to decide the best points to cross at and make one myself.
There are no clear goals as of yet for speaker load because I am still working on the design but if you would like to know what I am currently running they are SVS SBS-01 which are only 85db sensitive and are 8 ohms.
This amplifier build is also not something that is immediate, I am looking at what to do so I can make my plan and have an estimated cost....nothing that is "in stone" so, for instance, if the majority of you that build an F5 say that you spend $500 per channel then I know to estimate that for 2 monoblocks I should make sure to set aside 1k for each in the future. Right now I am looking at about $600 in drivers for the mains I am working on....may possibly increase.....
I am simply trying to plan a "path" so I know what I am going to do next. I highly doubt that these will cost the same as a store bought brand of course and I can make them look the way I want. I plan to use some VU meters on them too.
I am going to sell one of my cars too to finance so I do not think it is going to be unaffordable...
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+1 on F5
I'm using it on 95-96db home-brewed-folded-tapered-high-efficiency speaker set (12" bass/mid, 1" compression driver). Sonically, it is as good as one would wish for it to be. Certainly better than anything I would refer to as my previous references.
As far as skull splitting levels; if you have (or plan to have/build) a preamp with reasonably high voltage gain, you will never know that F5 is a "25Wpc" category Your ears will bleed MUCH sooner than F5 distorting.
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You misunderstood me, the miniDSP will most likely be used to simply determine the crossover points between the different drivers. If I decide to go active and stay active....I will be getting a DCX off ebay. However, I am leaning toward the passive route for various reasons.
The preamps that I am thinking about...are either a foreplay 3 from bottlehead or a conrad-johnson classic.....I may also try some of the bottlehead tube amps for the music but from what I have read these F5 are very hard to beat...
I will say too that when I sit down to listen to music I listen loud enough for the soundstage to be full and present but not blow you away loud.
I apologize for being bleak with the information provided before as I did not know you guys needed so much information.
The reason we ask for speaker information is because that determines how much power you need. Have you taken Pano's voltage test? Check the multiway forum. It will tell you how much power you really need.
If you were planning to use tube amps to drive your speakers, an F5 will be plenty fine. Just give it a preamp with lots of gain. And yes, you will see there is no point in building tube amps once you hear an F5.
If you were planning to use tube amps to drive your speakers, an F5 will be plenty fine. Just give it a preamp with lots of gain. And yes, you will see there is no point in building tube amps once you hear an F5.
I see, you dont want to go cheap, just looking for the most value in your first build. Go F-5, like 6L6 said, approximately 500, and if you have a line on a case , sinks, and or transformer it can get cheaper. 95 dB speakers should do fine, especially with a pre with a little gain. You can substitute 220 ohm resistors for the 100 ohm feedback resistors and increase gain from about 15 dB to about 22 dB, which will also give a little more juice. Going with the begining versions of Turbo F-5 will give a little more.
Russellc
Russellc
Oh, I knew that the speaker sensitivity mattered alot but not the preamp.
I am also going to use these for movies for the two mains and so what is great about the f5 is that you can always increase the power if needed.
Russelc, you got it...not cheap just best value.
It would probably be best to start with the standard f5 and then move my way up.
For the movies at first I will be using my Yamaha rx-v867 which has preouts and keep using the amps for the surround and center....Then I will work my way into maybe a class D for those. The two mains are where I am focusing my effort for good sound as i listen to alot of music.
I am also going to use these for movies for the two mains and so what is great about the f5 is that you can always increase the power if needed.
Russelc, you got it...not cheap just best value.
It would probably be best to start with the standard f5 and then move my way up.
For the movies at first I will be using my Yamaha rx-v867 which has preouts and keep using the amps for the surround and center....Then I will work my way into maybe a class D for those. The two mains are where I am focusing my effort for good sound as i listen to alot of music.
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Hi ORNJ,
In terms of $/watt/channel I would agree with F5 or the a40 that you found. That is my Aleph-X page that you found and while its a great amp, it is no where near $/watt the way I built it. If you build it according to the original spec of 38w output and don't parallel your output devices, then you have a pretty economical stereo chassis for a few hundred dollars. The a40 build that you linked belongs to Mark Finnis - he lives in Australia and helped me with my a40 build. He's an all around great guy.
Much of the cost lies in the parts that you choose. In my a40 I used exotic resistors and caps which pushed the price high, but it can be done for substantially less money, especially if you can source a used transformer and sinks. The same goes for the F5. when you talk about active crossovers, you are no longer looking at a best $/watt figures as you need to double up on your amps...
In terms of $/watt/channel I would agree with F5 or the a40 that you found. That is my Aleph-X page that you found and while its a great amp, it is no where near $/watt the way I built it. If you build it according to the original spec of 38w output and don't parallel your output devices, then you have a pretty economical stereo chassis for a few hundred dollars. The a40 build that you linked belongs to Mark Finnis - he lives in Australia and helped me with my a40 build. He's an all around great guy.
Much of the cost lies in the parts that you choose. In my a40 I used exotic resistors and caps which pushed the price high, but it can be done for substantially less money, especially if you can source a used transformer and sinks. The same goes for the F5. when you talk about active crossovers, you are no longer looking at a best $/watt figures as you need to double up on your amps...
Oh yes...gain is gain. With a passive or a buffer, like the B-1, there is no gain so all you have is what the amplifier has. In the case of the F-5, we are talking 15 dB. Most amps are around 30, or just a few dB less. If your speakers are less than 90's efficiency, you wont get very loud, maybe loud enough? With a pre with gain, there is more latitude with speakers that are less sensitive.
Look at the F-4 amp...no gain! Relies entirely on a VERY strong pre to drive it to volume levels.
You can increase the gain of the F-5, just exchange the feedback resistors from 100 to 220 ohms...that will raise it to 22 dB, according to Nelson in the Turbo article.
Russellc
With a foreplay or an old C-J you will LOVE the F5.
Remember that the old C-J preamps run their regulators on the edge of blowing up, so put fresh PSU caps in it and figure out a way to increase the PSU heatsink. Great, fantastic sounding preamps though.
Even with 88db or so speakers an F5 with a buffer in front will probably be fine. With 95db you will never want for more. However, it is quite true that a bit of gain in the pre makes this conversation academic.
Again, quite true, but this is really for those who want more system gain... Using a Foreplay or a C-J will make up for any and all system gain needs you could ever have.
Remember that the old C-J preamps run their regulators on the edge of blowing up, so put fresh PSU caps in it and figure out a way to increase the PSU heatsink. Great, fantastic sounding preamps though.
Even with 88db or so speakers an F5 with a buffer in front will probably be fine. With 95db you will never want for more. However, it is quite true that a bit of gain in the pre makes this conversation academic.
Again, quite true, but this is really for those who want more system gain... Using a Foreplay or a C-J will make up for any and all system gain needs you could ever have.
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GREAT! my father in law just gave me his old JBL 120Ti that I need to recone before use and they are rated at 89db sensitive. Maybe I will reconsider what I will do first, speakers or one of these F5s.....however, i would need to get my grubby hands on a preamp first as well...
6L6, I studied in CO at CSU. Love the state and miss it a TON! Graduated only in 2010 and would move back there for a job with Crop Production Services/Agrium but my wife wont leave CA....she has a great job here and I recently lost mine a few months ago...hence the reason I have all this time to plan builds and make designs.
I hope to get back there sometime in the next year to visit friends and see parts of the state that I never got to see. Ironically too I really miss making that drive to and from school 4 times a year as well, beautiful parts of the country you go through....and I miss the skiing.
6L6, I studied in CO at CSU. Love the state and miss it a TON! Graduated only in 2010 and would move back there for a job with Crop Production Services/Agrium but my wife wont leave CA....she has a great job here and I recently lost mine a few months ago...hence the reason I have all this time to plan builds and make designs.
I hope to get back there sometime in the next year to visit friends and see parts of the state that I never got to see. Ironically too I really miss making that drive to and from school 4 times a year as well, beautiful parts of the country you go through....and I miss the skiing.
Do the speakers need reconing or just new foam surrounds? Surrounds are easy.
It's always hard to determine what order you should do a project, however if you don't currently have speakers, you probably should start there.
What are you planning on using as a source? If you have an iPod, or even just the headphone jack of your computer, you can always hook that directly into the amp until you get a preamp finished, and then figure out a more elegant way to handle your digital files.
It's always hard to determine what order you should do a project, however if you don't currently have speakers, you probably should start there.
What are you planning on using as a source? If you have an iPod, or even just the headphone jack of your computer, you can always hook that directly into the amp until you get a preamp finished, and then figure out a more elegant way to handle your digital files.
Yes, refoaming, sorry. It was late when I posted that last night.
I'll keep the speakers at the highest priority. Right now the cost for each monitor is $684 with a 8" mid, 12" midbass, and ribbon tweeter.
If my wife throws too much a fit about the size of the 120Ti then I may change direction and go with a horned two way....but I prefer the sound of a 3 way with music. Or maybe something with a coaxial....we will see.
For source I am using a PS3 as a cd player and I have an ipod dock for my receiver. Im working also getting ahold of a old turntable like a Lenco(Goldring/Bogen in the states to my knowledge) or a Thorens TD125/160/124(wont happen), or a garrard if I find someone stupid locally who doesnt know what they have.
I'll keep the speakers at the highest priority. Right now the cost for each monitor is $684 with a 8" mid, 12" midbass, and ribbon tweeter.
If my wife throws too much a fit about the size of the 120Ti then I may change direction and go with a horned two way....but I prefer the sound of a 3 way with music. Or maybe something with a coaxial....we will see.
For source I am using a PS3 as a cd player and I have an ipod dock for my receiver. Im working also getting ahold of a old turntable like a Lenco(Goldring/Bogen in the states to my knowledge) or a Thorens TD125/160/124(wont happen), or a garrard if I find someone stupid locally who doesnt know what they have.
if you include your electric bill in your $/watt calculation...
ORNJ: As you may already realize, the various Pass amps discussed here are all class A designs, so they are essentially space heaters that put out a bit of music....that's why they all need giant heat sinks.
If you are looking for amps to use mostly in a home theater setup, you may want to consider a class A/B amp design, especially if it will be on many hours/day.
If you want a simple circuit, no-compromise class A topology, you are in the right place.
Where are you located in CA?
ORNJ: As you may already realize, the various Pass amps discussed here are all class A designs, so they are essentially space heaters that put out a bit of music....that's why they all need giant heat sinks.
If you are looking for amps to use mostly in a home theater setup, you may want to consider a class A/B amp design, especially if it will be on many hours/day.
If you want a simple circuit, no-compromise class A topology, you are in the right place.
Where are you located in CA?
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ha, they will be great in the winter at least!
I am in: queue banjo.....BAKERSFIELD made fun of in more movies than probably any other town.....
Born and raised here, studied Ag Business in CO and moved back here when graduated. I just applied to a few jobs further south though slightly north of San Diego for John Deere....may wind up relocating....working for family didnt work out for me
But then again I also applied to Lockheed Martin for some computer work since I am by definition a nerd
I am in: queue banjo.....BAKERSFIELD made fun of in more movies than probably any other town.....
Born and raised here, studied Ag Business in CO and moved back here when graduated. I just applied to a few jobs further south though slightly north of San Diego for John Deere....may wind up relocating....working for family didnt work out for me
But then again I also applied to Lockheed Martin for some computer work since I am by definition a nerd
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