Bass Reflex project
Hi all, I am looking for some well schooled advise from over here.
I am trying to do my homework, but it gets confusing..
I originally wanted to try out a Mark Audio, but after being honest with myself - realize that i may play music a little too loud for these.
I listen mainly to classic rock type music and figure i better go 8" full range. So I am thinking of building a bass reflex cabinet with 8" full range driver.
What is my best option for optimal sound. (i have narowed to the following)
Tang Band 1808
Audio Nirvana
SEAS Prestige
Fostex FF225WK
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Mike
Hi all, I am looking for some well schooled advise from over here.
I am trying to do my homework, but it gets confusing..
I originally wanted to try out a Mark Audio, but after being honest with myself - realize that i may play music a little too loud for these.
I listen mainly to classic rock type music and figure i better go 8" full range. So I am thinking of building a bass reflex cabinet with 8" full range driver.
What is my best option for optimal sound. (i have narowed to the following)
Tang Band 1808
Audio Nirvana
SEAS Prestige
Fostex FF225WK
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Mike
Last edited:
Take a look at the BetsyK's: Wild Burro Audio Labs - Fullrange Speakers - The Betsy & Betsy-K Drivers
I just acquired a pair and and breaking them in. They model very nicely in 61 liters vented. F3/F10 48/35 Hz. This is using as measured T/S parameters, partially run in. They also have some nice presence even when listening in open air.
I just acquired a pair and and breaking them in. They model very nicely in 61 liters vented. F3/F10 48/35 Hz. This is using as measured T/S parameters, partially run in. They also have some nice presence even when listening in open air.
First you need to define 'loud'.
Then, loud + 8" 'FR' normally = very efficient driver + large [unless possibly corner loaded] BLH for low distortion, so the first consideration becomes how big/complex are you willing to 'afford'?
Last, but not least, 'optimal' is a variable based on one's hearing acuity, personal preference, any WAF/SAF/S.O. considerations and the room conditions, so please elaborate as best you can.
GM
Not knowing how much you know about FR in general, such large drivers will beam. A lot. Which means you will only have optimal highs for a single fixed sweetspot seat.
Take that into account if you (or anyone you live with) will want to use them for casual walk around/sit anywhere listening.
You could use helper (super) tweeters or multiple drivers to negate that drawback to some extent though, with a penalty in complexity of build and slight overall degrade in the characteristics of what makes fullrangers desirable.
Take that into account if you (or anyone you live with) will want to use them for casual walk around/sit anywhere listening.
You could use helper (super) tweeters or multiple drivers to negate that drawback to some extent though, with a penalty in complexity of build and slight overall degrade in the characteristics of what makes fullrangers desirable.
Last edited:
I have done much research on the Tang Band and Audio Nirvana drivers. I have less familiarity with the Seas and Fostex units. The W8-1808 has received glowing reviews by most who have used it. I have seen no negative comments about it. Those who have tried the Audio Nirvana drivers seem to be divided---some like them, some dislike them, and the opinions can be very strong either way.
From what I gather, although the 1808 has the overall rising frequency response of most full-range drivers, it appears to be without the large peaks and dips in the response (especially in the upper midrange) that plague many other designs. It also appears that the quality control of Tang Band manufacturing may be higher than that of Audio Nirvana.
You don't mention where or how much you have researched. My suggestion is to begin with the data sheets of the drivers that interest you and use some speaker design software to get an idea of the recommended bass reflex cabinet size and expected frequency response for each driver/cabinet combination. This may tell you whether the cabinets will fit well in your living space and what performance you may expect from them (for rock music you will want plenty of bass response). I use the online calculators at www.lautsprechershop.de and www.mh-audio.nl.
I also suggest you read as many reviews of each driver as you can find. Diy Audio is a great source for information of that kind. Also check out Parts Express, Madisound, and Brines Acoustics if you have not already done so.
I don't know anything about your amplifier. Do you know whether it will drive each speaker to a sufficient volume level for your taste? The efficiency of the driver you choose will determine how loudly it will play with your amplifier, so if you choose to use your tube amp, you may want to pay extra attention to speaker efficiency. Also, check out the Nelson Pass article on full-range drivers and amplifiers. It may give you food for thought.
My personal take on all of this: I like the sound of bass reflex cabinets if they are tuned well (without a booming "one note" bass). I purchased a pair of W8-1808 drivers and have settled upon a bass reflex cabinet to house them. I plan to drive them with a solid-state amplifier with a high enough damping factor to keep the low end under control and sufficient power to provide enough headroom for good dynamic performance. In my opinion you won't go wrong with the 1808 in the right bass reflex cabinet and the right amplifier driving it.
From what I gather, although the 1808 has the overall rising frequency response of most full-range drivers, it appears to be without the large peaks and dips in the response (especially in the upper midrange) that plague many other designs. It also appears that the quality control of Tang Band manufacturing may be higher than that of Audio Nirvana.
You don't mention where or how much you have researched. My suggestion is to begin with the data sheets of the drivers that interest you and use some speaker design software to get an idea of the recommended bass reflex cabinet size and expected frequency response for each driver/cabinet combination. This may tell you whether the cabinets will fit well in your living space and what performance you may expect from them (for rock music you will want plenty of bass response). I use the online calculators at www.lautsprechershop.de and www.mh-audio.nl.
I also suggest you read as many reviews of each driver as you can find. Diy Audio is a great source for information of that kind. Also check out Parts Express, Madisound, and Brines Acoustics if you have not already done so.
I don't know anything about your amplifier. Do you know whether it will drive each speaker to a sufficient volume level for your taste? The efficiency of the driver you choose will determine how loudly it will play with your amplifier, so if you choose to use your tube amp, you may want to pay extra attention to speaker efficiency. Also, check out the Nelson Pass article on full-range drivers and amplifiers. It may give you food for thought.
My personal take on all of this: I like the sound of bass reflex cabinets if they are tuned well (without a booming "one note" bass). I purchased a pair of W8-1808 drivers and have settled upon a bass reflex cabinet to house them. I plan to drive them with a solid-state amplifier with a high enough damping factor to keep the low end under control and sufficient power to provide enough headroom for good dynamic performance. In my opinion you won't go wrong with the 1808 in the right bass reflex cabinet and the right amplifier driving it.
>>> I listen mainly to classic rock type music...
>>> The W8-1808 has received glowing reviews by most who have used it. I have seen no negative comments about it.
Personally, i think the 1808 sounds best with jazz. It's a very intimate driver that lets the details show thru without being in your face. It works with classic rock but cannot handle a lot of power. So as good as it may sound at reasonable volumes it won't play as loud, cleanly, as other speakers.
Just my 2 cents.
>>> The W8-1808 has received glowing reviews by most who have used it. I have seen no negative comments about it.
Personally, i think the 1808 sounds best with jazz. It's a very intimate driver that lets the details show thru without being in your face. It works with classic rock but cannot handle a lot of power. So as good as it may sound at reasonable volumes it won't play as loud, cleanly, as other speakers.
Just my 2 cents.
As an aside, it is pretty much a general statement that unless you do something like a FAST system, single-driver speakers don't play loud. However, once you get the bass off of the wide-range drivers, things get different. I have a pair of MA Alpair 7.3's crossed to a sub at 160Hz for HT. These speakers get crazy loud without over excusing the A7.3's.
Bob
Bob
You're welcome!
OK, I'm assuming this is peak because if not, then forget using a 'FR' period as none with extended HF I'm aware of can hit the 20-30+ dB of dynamic headroom available on some recordings, much less at low distortion without full front/rear horn loading.
Since tube driven, its output impedance [not its nominal tap rating] needs to be known to properly design any type of cab alignment. This added to the driver's Qts will dominate setting cab net volume [Vb] and being a high output impedance system, it should ideally be tuned to Fs for best power transfer, so ideally Fs should be < ~40 Hz to cover most music, which will narrow your choices to larger drivers with a wide, rising response break-up modes [beaming] BW to get decent HF extension once toe'd in to the listening position.
GM
Since we're talking about FAST designs, and I plan on building one......
Bob, do you have anything to report on the Tang Band W5-1611, in either the neodymium or ferrite versions? I am interested in using one for the top end in a FAST. Also, I'm curious about your experience with the companion driver to the W8-1808, the W8-1772, which you say when mounted in your mass-loaded TL cabinet will do justice to heavier rock genre. Do you know how loudly it will play in that cabinet, or in your bass reflex cabinet for the same driver?
Apologies to Mike if I'm too far off topic, but maybe Bob's results with the 1772 will be helpful, and maybe a FAST will give Mike another option that is not too complicated.
Bob, do you have anything to report on the Tang Band W5-1611, in either the neodymium or ferrite versions? I am interested in using one for the top end in a FAST. Also, I'm curious about your experience with the companion driver to the W8-1808, the W8-1772, which you say when mounted in your mass-loaded TL cabinet will do justice to heavier rock genre. Do you know how loudly it will play in that cabinet, or in your bass reflex cabinet for the same driver?
Apologies to Mike if I'm too far off topic, but maybe Bob's results with the 1772 will be helpful, and maybe a FAST will give Mike another option that is not too complicated.
Last edited:
Thank you everyone for the responses, and forgive me of my typos,I have a better command of the English language than that, - however I was writing on my laptop in a rush...(Kids, wife...)
Anyway, I have always wanted to build a speaker, but for whatever reason however have had trouble getting it off the ground.
(In fact i have baltic birch plywood cut up for a 2.8 bass reflex project that was only about 25% finished.(This is going back to 2008), and i see that there are a greater selection of drivers to chose from now it appears.(My kids were really young back then and it seemed like i could never find the time - i am hoping that this spring will be different)
My Amp will play almost anything, it even worked on Magnepans (It gives a good 100 watts)
My first run into a single driver type speakers was by chance at a garage sale find - a pair of EMI oval speakers with a concentric tweeter held in place by a metal brace.
The sound was very colored but it excelled in jazz - i would play Ella, Armstrong and the likes and it really did something with it. (Rock type music was a different story....it was "listanable" but when stuff got busy it became like a mash of sound)
I purchased a used pair of Omega speakers which has an 8" single driver and it plays loud enough, but if i could squeeze about 3 or 4 db's from it - it would be even better.
These speakers are used in conjunction with two pairs of older Velodyne subs (1012) which have a 10" driver in conjunction with a down firing 12" passive radiator.
Using these subs with the Omegas give a really good full range sound (The subs blend pretty well coming in at the 40 - 50 hz setting)
"My homework" has been mainly searching anything i can pick up on the web and most of the information leads me to the "DIY web site" over here.
My wood working skills are minimal however, although i have a table saw, so i figure a vented box will be "easy enough".
I read somewhere that "Godzilla" thought that the TANG BAND's if tuned high enough would be better suited than trying to tune them low and trying to get the most bass out of them. (This I believe, was better to get them to go louder with out straining them)
So maybe i am better "tuning" them higher and use the subs to fill in the bottom?
What would be a good tuning frequency 50hz or so?
Is there a way to build a box and "adjust" the tuning after it is built to play them according to their strengths?
Maybe stuff the ports or something to get a higher roll off for "louder type playing" and un stuff or tune lower somehow to the get more bass when not playing too loud (Jazz type vocals)?
I think either the Tang Bands or the SEAS are the way to go I suppose...
Again thank you all - I really appreciate all the replies and assistance.
Best regards
Mike
Anyway, I have always wanted to build a speaker, but for whatever reason however have had trouble getting it off the ground.
(In fact i have baltic birch plywood cut up for a 2.8 bass reflex project that was only about 25% finished.(This is going back to 2008), and i see that there are a greater selection of drivers to chose from now it appears.(My kids were really young back then and it seemed like i could never find the time - i am hoping that this spring will be different)
My Amp will play almost anything, it even worked on Magnepans (It gives a good 100 watts)
My first run into a single driver type speakers was by chance at a garage sale find - a pair of EMI oval speakers with a concentric tweeter held in place by a metal brace.
The sound was very colored but it excelled in jazz - i would play Ella, Armstrong and the likes and it really did something with it. (Rock type music was a different story....it was "listanable" but when stuff got busy it became like a mash of sound)
I purchased a used pair of Omega speakers which has an 8" single driver and it plays loud enough, but if i could squeeze about 3 or 4 db's from it - it would be even better.
These speakers are used in conjunction with two pairs of older Velodyne subs (1012) which have a 10" driver in conjunction with a down firing 12" passive radiator.
Using these subs with the Omegas give a really good full range sound (The subs blend pretty well coming in at the 40 - 50 hz setting)
"My homework" has been mainly searching anything i can pick up on the web and most of the information leads me to the "DIY web site" over here.
My wood working skills are minimal however, although i have a table saw, so i figure a vented box will be "easy enough".
I read somewhere that "Godzilla" thought that the TANG BAND's if tuned high enough would be better suited than trying to tune them low and trying to get the most bass out of them. (This I believe, was better to get them to go louder with out straining them)
So maybe i am better "tuning" them higher and use the subs to fill in the bottom?
What would be a good tuning frequency 50hz or so?
Is there a way to build a box and "adjust" the tuning after it is built to play them according to their strengths?
Maybe stuff the ports or something to get a higher roll off for "louder type playing" and un stuff or tune lower somehow to the get more bass when not playing too loud (Jazz type vocals)?
I think either the Tang Bands or the SEAS are the way to go I suppose...
Again thank you all - I really appreciate all the replies and assistance.
Best regards
Mike
Mike,
I have owned my W8-1808 pair for several months now. Lots of "life stuff" prevented me from building cabinets for them, but during that time I looked at a number of options. One that I strongly considered was using them in a bi-amped system with the 1808 in a sealed box, driven directly by its own amplifier, with a separate amp/driver combination for the low frequencies (I may still try this option at some time in the future). The 1808 appears to be very versatile in that regard---you can use it in a variety of ways and get good sound.
It appears that you are already familiar with the FAST concept. I think your options will open up if your are willing, as you seem to be, to go that way with your project.
I have owned my W8-1808 pair for several months now. Lots of "life stuff" prevented me from building cabinets for them, but during that time I looked at a number of options. One that I strongly considered was using them in a bi-amped system with the 1808 in a sealed box, driven directly by its own amplifier, with a separate amp/driver combination for the low frequencies (I may still try this option at some time in the future). The 1808 appears to be very versatile in that regard---you can use it in a variety of ways and get good sound.
It appears that you are already familiar with the FAST concept. I think your options will open up if your are willing, as you seem to be, to go that way with your project.
Take a look at this thread
If you haven't been following this thread, it might have some possibilities for you.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/207110-bass-helper-recommendations-ff85wk.html
If you haven't been following this thread, it might have some possibilities for you.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/207110-bass-helper-recommendations-ff85wk.html
Mike,
You have it. FAST is a full-range speaker assisted by a bass driver. I have seen a couple of different explanations of the acronym---I don't know if there is an official version, but I'm not an expert on FAST, as I myself only learned about it in the last few months. You might try a search on this forum to get more ideas. Member Planet10 seems to be the go-to guy for FAST.
If I build one, I plan to go the bi-amped route, instead of using one amp output with a passive crossover on the drivers.
You have it. FAST is a full-range speaker assisted by a bass driver. I have seen a couple of different explanations of the acronym---I don't know if there is an official version, but I'm not an expert on FAST, as I myself only learned about it in the last few months. You might try a search on this forum to get more ideas. Member Planet10 seems to be the go-to guy for FAST.
If I build one, I plan to go the bi-amped route, instead of using one amp output with a passive crossover on the drivers.
Generally taken to mean Fullrange And Subwoofer Technology or variations thereof.
Or as I prefer to call them 'a 2 way loudspeaker.' I loath that FAST moniker. It's not even accurate, given that 9 times out of 10 the bass end is pulling bass duties, not just sub-bass. Another example of 'what once was old, is again new', as GM would say. Nothing wrong with it either. Get that dedicated bass unit handling things < 250Hz (or < 500Hz if you favour big orchestral pieces, a lot of classic rock etc.) & you're laughing.
Or as I prefer to call them 'a 2 way loudspeaker.' I loath that FAST moniker. It's not even accurate, given that 9 times out of 10 the bass end is pulling bass duties, not just sub-bass. Another example of 'what once was old, is again new', as GM would say. Nothing wrong with it either. Get that dedicated bass unit handling things < 250Hz (or < 500Hz if you favour big orchestral pieces, a lot of classic rock etc.) & you're laughing.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.