Hello,
I have looked at hundreds of posts on the F5. However, there are still many questions I have.
I am planning on a F5 build. I will use boards from diyaudio store.
The power supply recommended is the antek an-4218 (400VA unshielded). Is there a good improvement is using dual power supply? And is the shielded power supply better?
I terms of case, I was thinking on using a server rackmount case Newegg.ca - Rosewill RSV-L4000 Black Metal / Steel, 1.0 mm thickness, 4U Rackmount Server Chassis 8 Internal Bays, 7 Included Cooling Fans
These case seems to be a nice size, ventilated hole and a nice design to match. They even have some fans if electricity is wired to them.
The heatsink recommended is from heatsinkusa, about the lenght of the case and as wide as possible.
For component, tech-diy seems to have all the necessary transistor and other component except for power supply. Is the upgrade worthwhile to have the caddock resistors?
Is there any kit for the power supply regulation? Or should it simply be P2P for ease of creation + lower costs?
I am also planning on a lightstep attenuator for volume control and a gamma 1 dac for optical in. I wonder if all this could be integrated into 1 box. Potentially adding futher PSU and regulation for other items.
For RCA connectors and wire what is your suggested item for best performance by $.
Also, any suggestion on good value upgrade?
Cheers
I have looked at hundreds of posts on the F5. However, there are still many questions I have.
I am planning on a F5 build. I will use boards from diyaudio store.
The power supply recommended is the antek an-4218 (400VA unshielded). Is there a good improvement is using dual power supply? And is the shielded power supply better?
I terms of case, I was thinking on using a server rackmount case Newegg.ca - Rosewill RSV-L4000 Black Metal / Steel, 1.0 mm thickness, 4U Rackmount Server Chassis 8 Internal Bays, 7 Included Cooling Fans
These case seems to be a nice size, ventilated hole and a nice design to match. They even have some fans if electricity is wired to them.
The heatsink recommended is from heatsinkusa, about the lenght of the case and as wide as possible.
For component, tech-diy seems to have all the necessary transistor and other component except for power supply. Is the upgrade worthwhile to have the caddock resistors?
Is there any kit for the power supply regulation? Or should it simply be P2P for ease of creation + lower costs?
I am also planning on a lightstep attenuator for volume control and a gamma 1 dac for optical in. I wonder if all this could be integrated into 1 box. Potentially adding futher PSU and regulation for other items.
For RCA connectors and wire what is your suggested item for best performance by $.
Also, any suggestion on good value upgrade?
Cheers
Some think so, others don't. It can't hurt. It does add cost.
Again, it can't hurt.
It's huge! With that much forced cooling you could build an Aleph 1.2!!! And if it were me, using that much case, I would. But that's me.
If you have the heatsinks internal to the case, you will need the fans. Look to starving them a bit so they run slower and more quietly. Server fans are usually loud enough to wake the dead.
If you run the fins front to back, the fans will again be necessary. Slower is still ok, you don't need to move much air to make a big difference.
I used Tech-DIY for my build and their kits are a great deal. I have no complaints.
That's a religious question. I abstain from answering.
The standard PSU is not regulated. There are a few PCB commonly available for the PSU that can be used. Peter Daniel's (Audiosector.com) board, or the Alpeh PSU PCB available from Chipamp.com
Sure! Sounds like a good idea, I love integrated.
Again, that's a religious question, some people think you are a moron if you don't shell out a bazillion dollars for the expensive stuff, and others think you are an idiot if you do anything other than using the inexpensive ones.
Ummmm... For what, specifically?
Last edited:
I'm in the process of building an F5 as well, very slowly however. I selected the single shielded transformer only because the shield option wasn't really expensive compared to the transformer itself. A double rated single transformer would not be as good as 2, at least theoretically, but I can't see it making that big a difference unless you woefully under-spec your single transformer.
The CRC power supply filter came from ebay. It wasn't expensive and is adequate quality. You have to assemble it, but it like it is still available. Search "PASS F5 power".
I got the case from vt4c.com and it is adequate as well. It's not a perfect fit and it has other text on it, but it will do. It comes withe the power circuitry, input and output connectors & I have to admit they were a surprise. They're fine. But the case will end up being the single biggest expence unless you go cheap or totally DIY it.
I use Newark.com for parts mostly, but some of the stuff has come from other sources like ebay & DIY store. There circuit card are pretty good.
Good luck.
The CRC power supply filter came from ebay. It wasn't expensive and is adequate quality. You have to assemble it, but it like it is still available. Search "PASS F5 power".
I got the case from vt4c.com and it is adequate as well. It's not a perfect fit and it has other text on it, but it will do. It comes withe the power circuitry, input and output connectors & I have to admit they were a surprise. They're fine. But the case will end up being the single biggest expence unless you go cheap or totally DIY it.
I use Newark.com for parts mostly, but some of the stuff has come from other sources like ebay & DIY store. There circuit card are pretty good.
Good luck.
I would not recommend running a regulated supply... one could try it of course. But since it is a class A amp, the draw is reasonably constant from the supply. Focus on getting the supply ripple low by non-regulating means, imo.
I would not use fans, unless you are in a noisy environment.
I hear hum in my LR if it is there. Fan noise is clearly heard as well.
Convection cooling is the way to go for this amp.
Again, imo.
People have reported hearing diffs in bias level, output devices and the larger power resistors, and of course the power supply. In short, ALMOST everything!!
I'd add layout and wiring has an audible effect on this amp as well.
Reconsider the chassis requirements and sources I would suggest.
Unless you need or want the standard "look" rack mount amp, think "out of the box".
The heatsink is the determining part.
Build to it?
_-_-bear
PS. a cap multiplier might be ok, but you have to think about the heat that the pass devices will add - it already is a candidate for a small room heater. That's a big reason that I would not want to use a regulated supply, you have to drop a lot of voltage to get real regulation under peak loads, which equals heat. But even so it is still something to consider for a full out "no-holds-barred" implementation. (but I'd test it sonically in a prototype before spending the time and $ to make a final and slick amp) Of course some folks will tell you that regulators impart their own "sound"...
I would not use fans, unless you are in a noisy environment.
I hear hum in my LR if it is there. Fan noise is clearly heard as well.
Convection cooling is the way to go for this amp.
Again, imo.
People have reported hearing diffs in bias level, output devices and the larger power resistors, and of course the power supply. In short, ALMOST everything!!
I'd add layout and wiring has an audible effect on this amp as well.
Reconsider the chassis requirements and sources I would suggest.
Unless you need or want the standard "look" rack mount amp, think "out of the box".
The heatsink is the determining part.
Build to it?
_-_-bear
PS. a cap multiplier might be ok, but you have to think about the heat that the pass devices will add - it already is a candidate for a small room heater. That's a big reason that I would not want to use a regulated supply, you have to drop a lot of voltage to get real regulation under peak loads, which equals heat. But even so it is still something to consider for a full out "no-holds-barred" implementation. (but I'd test it sonically in a prototype before spending the time and $ to make a final and slick amp) Of course some folks will tell you that regulators impart their own "sound"...
Last edited:
Perhaps the best "chassis alternative" is DIY. The large heatsinks easily form the sides of the chassis, and with some drilling and tapping (which you'll have to do anyway (to mount the amp PCBs and the MOSFETs), you can build a nifty chassis of your own design. You can use "Front Panel Express" to create your remaining front and rear chassis panels, and for the top--get creative. I built my F5 using 3/16" aluminum plate, and it is largely indestructable. I also used the large Conrad heatsinks. You can also run cooling fans--I did.....running 120vac fans at about 65vac (for reduced speed and noise).
My build, FYI: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass...-build-beautiful-music-different-drummer.html
My build, FYI: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass...-build-beautiful-music-different-drummer.html
re: heatsink and chassis
For what it's worth, I'm going to get heat sinks from Antek. I saw their ebay enclosure and asked if I could get their heatsinks alone for which they quoted me $25 each. I also ordered the transformer from them (as well as my B1 transformer) which helped cut down on shipping costs collectively. Of course, you can get the full enclosure if you don't want to fuss with DIY-ing that part of it.
The stuff is in the mail so I'll post pics when I get them in the build thread I just started.
For what it's worth, I'm going to get heat sinks from Antek. I saw their ebay enclosure and asked if I could get their heatsinks alone for which they quoted me $25 each. I also ordered the transformer from them (as well as my B1 transformer) which helped cut down on shipping costs collectively. Of course, you can get the full enclosure if you don't want to fuss with DIY-ing that part of it.
The stuff is in the mail so I'll post pics when I get them in the build thread I just started.
CanAm,
How did the heat without fans work out?
And, did you ever get together with those other DIY'ers?
<limited thread hijack alert!>
_-_-bear
bear,
the Conrad heatsinks with fan cooling was serious overkill, but it gave me the opportunity to try higher bias (which I experiemented with). Having said that, my chassis (with low-noise fans) is now a great candidate for the F5 turbo....
Yep....... 6L6 is in Denver, and bbm3 is just "up the road" from me in Colorado Springs. We got together at my house to poke and prod the F5, and to talk "car talk". Right now, I'm getting ready to move to Florida, and that will probably throw the monkey wrench into further sessions.......
the Conrad heatsinks with fan cooling was serious overkill, but it gave me the opportunity to try higher bias (which I experiemented with). Having said that, my chassis (with low-noise fans) is now a great candidate for the F5 turbo....
Yep....... 6L6 is in Denver, and bbm3 is just "up the road" from me in Colorado Springs. We got together at my house to poke and prod the F5, and to talk "car talk". Right now, I'm getting ready to move to Florida, and that will probably throw the monkey wrench into further sessions.......
advice needed
I'm considering using a HiFi 2000 Pesante Dissipante chassis. If I understand the temperature coefficient right the 5U/500mm chassis should be good for about ~200 watts/per sink (0.23 C°/W @50C°). With four sinks that's about ~800 watts total. The 4U/400mm chassis is about half that. Am I on the right track here?
The price and shipping (to US) are both high, but not sure if there is anything as complete.
Also, I would like to build BA3, Aleph X-J and the F5/F5 turbo during the next year or two, and was considering using a separate power supply chassis and each amp having it's own chassis. Goal of one killer power supply vs three power supplies... Would it be best to size the transformer to the largest amp with extra care to lower the voltage on the others, or size to the smallest amp sacrificing power on the others? My thought here is to purchase two large plitron transfers vs several various transformers (say plitron or antek). Any thoughts here?
Jim
I'm considering using a HiFi 2000 Pesante Dissipante chassis. If I understand the temperature coefficient right the 5U/500mm chassis should be good for about ~200 watts/per sink (0.23 C°/W @50C°). With four sinks that's about ~800 watts total. The 4U/400mm chassis is about half that. Am I on the right track here?
The price and shipping (to US) are both high, but not sure if there is anything as complete.
Also, I would like to build BA3, Aleph X-J and the F5/F5 turbo during the next year or two, and was considering using a separate power supply chassis and each amp having it's own chassis. Goal of one killer power supply vs three power supplies... Would it be best to size the transformer to the largest amp with extra care to lower the voltage on the others, or size to the smallest amp sacrificing power on the others? My thought here is to purchase two large plitron transfers vs several various transformers (say plitron or antek). Any thoughts here?
Jim
Hi All,
I'm also a newbie collecting parts for building F5 & DCB1.
I would like to connect pre to amp from strait from PCB to PCB with no rca connectors for best preformance.
What would be the best cable constraction: coaxial or twisted per with a shield? and if so should the shield be connected to ground at both ends or just one? and lastly, what awg wire should i use?
Thank you
I'm also a newbie collecting parts for building F5 & DCB1.
I would like to connect pre to amp from strait from PCB to PCB with no rca connectors for best preformance.
What would be the best cable constraction: coaxial or twisted per with a shield? and if so should the shield be connected to ground at both ends or just one? and lastly, what awg wire should i use?
Thank you
There have been a few builds of the F5 with a separate PS chassis.
You have to look out for the Vdrop in the connecting wires.
Other than that, it is OK.
But you probably should not try to run multiple amps off one master supply.
You will save a few $$ buying one pair or one single transformer over transformers per pair of channels or per mono amp. I'd build mono amps myself, if going for best performance.
Also the power supply voltages and currents are different for the different amplifiers.
Looks like ur going to use a costly chassis, so why worry about the cost of some iron? At least for the F5 the size of the iron is somewhat modest...
Of course there are all sorts of ways to do things, people have made builds a variety of ways and styles.
_-_-bear
What is the distance between the two?
The best construction would be 1" of wire.
But assuming some distance, there is not likely to be much if any sonic difference between using the RCAs and not. You can just build as IF you were going to use RCAs, make the holes and then just use a grommet to let the wire you chose to use through that hole. The RCA gives you more flexibility as far a changing interconnects and moving stuff around.
Which wires? Gauge? Impossible to say. So much depends on what else is going on in ur system, and what you hear.
_-_-bear
If one big transformer fed multiple amps, I would consider giving each amp its own CRC filter board and bridge rectifier. Transfer the energy as AC power from the big-a$$ transformer into each amp. The interconnect cables do not have to be as heavy gauge as they do if transferring DC power. I'm not sure you want any kind of distance between the CRC filter and the AMP to be honest. It is another Achilles heal for noise introduction. DC power cables from a common supply should use like shielded -00- gauge cable.
I love the idea of a separate PSU with the intention of trying different amps!!
There are enough Pass/FirstWatt designs that run on +/- 24v rails that you could be busy for a long time. F5, Aleph 3/30, Aleph J, One of the burning amps, and a couple of the firstwatt series. Those all have similar PSU requirements. There are more, those just popped into my head as I type this.
However, the 5U/500mm chassis is very, very large. You really wouldn't need a separate case. You could make your oversized and bulletproof PSU in that chassis, and for the amp circuits you need to look at the universal mounting spec (look at the PCB available from this site)-- You would be able to have a number of amps on the same holes on the chassis. Then if you would wish to try something different, it is just a matter of drilling a few new holes in the heatsink.
There are enough Pass/FirstWatt designs that run on +/- 24v rails that you could be busy for a long time. F5, Aleph 3/30, Aleph J, One of the burning amps, and a couple of the firstwatt series. Those all have similar PSU requirements. There are more, those just popped into my head as I type this.
However, the 5U/500mm chassis is very, very large. You really wouldn't need a separate case. You could make your oversized and bulletproof PSU in that chassis, and for the amp circuits you need to look at the universal mounting spec (look at the PCB available from this site)-- You would be able to have a number of amps on the same holes on the chassis. Then if you would wish to try something different, it is just a matter of drilling a few new holes in the heatsink.
I run Aleph 2 monoblocks (about 300W heat per monoblock) in Pesante Dissipante 4U 400mm (1 box per channel). They get warm/hot but I can put my hand on the sinks and the thermal cut-off is not reached.
A friend of mine is building an F4 in a 3U 300mm. Not yet finished so not sure if it runs hot.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for your response Bear,
I only plan to run one amp at a time, mostly as 6L6 commented, to try out different Amps. I'm not exactly worried about the cost, but I also like the idea of sharing resources between the designs in a convenient fashion. End goal would be to move the input, speaker and power cables to the various amps as desired.
As you stated, I think the biggest issue might figuring out a universal dc voltage rail between the various amps I want to build. Perhaps this could be tuned within each amp assuming the PSU supplies a fixed voltage and a maximum current that is safe for the various amps.
I was considering splitting up the power supply until I realized that two PSUs detailed for the F5 Turbo V2, the main cost could very well be the 32 10,000 caps (320,000 uF?). The power cables probably won't be as cheap either, something that I should resolve before going down this path.
Thanks 6L6,
I think the main reason why I'm after separate chassis for the amps is for convenience of switching. I definitely want to do an F5 and Aleph variants along with the BA3 and definitely others amps and even try out irons in-place of toroidal transformers.
Hello AlbertNL,
How did you utilize the heat sinks for your monoblocks? i.e. both sides (2 sinks/side). Pictures?
Thanks for the responses it's given me more to think about with these key topics. How to deal with DC rail, power interconnect and all those caps..
I am afraid I don't have any decent photo's. This one does give an idea of the layout. As you can see, both sides are used.
Power supply uses:
Better internal wiring, extra PSU capacitors, Elna Silmic II 220uF capacitors, possibly change input and current source IRF9610's to ZVP3310A's and change power resistors.
I think that for testing it would be great to have a large separate PSU with relatively high voltage and current (as high as you will need, say 1KVA with 2 x 40V secondaries) and a variac that can handle a bit of VA's for the amps that need a lower voltage. Add two panel Volt meters to the PSU box's front panel to aid setting it up for testing. Using a thick (2.5mm^2?) short cable from the PSU box to any box with the actual amp circuit would make for easy switching.
Power supply uses:
- Talema 1KVA 2 x 40V/12.5A secondaries
- 4 x F&T 47000uF/63V
- 2 x Intertechnik 2.2mH
Better internal wiring, extra PSU capacitors, Elna Silmic II 220uF capacitors, possibly change input and current source IRF9610's to ZVP3310A's and change power resistors.
I think that for testing it would be great to have a large separate PSU with relatively high voltage and current (as high as you will need, say 1KVA with 2 x 40V secondaries) and a variac that can handle a bit of VA's for the amps that need a lower voltage. Add two panel Volt meters to the PSU box's front panel to aid setting it up for testing. Using a thick (2.5mm^2?) short cable from the PSU box to any box with the actual amp circuit would make for easy switching.
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.