Hello everybody,
I'm a total newbie to diy and have finally mustered the funds for my first ever speaker project.
As I wouldn't have a clue on how to build a cross-over I was thinking about some full rangers, and after some reading I got the impression the Jordan JX92HD+ seem like a pretty safe bet.
I have seen the most popular projects for the JX92S and really love the looks of the classic VTL design by Ted Jordan, also it seems to be reasonably simple to build, but I'm not sure if the new HD+ drivers can be used with it and I was hoping to find reassurance here. I was also wondering if the MarkAudio drivers could be used in alternative and wether they would sound better or worse.
Could anybody please tell me where I could find the detailed projects for the VTLs', possibly with step by step instructions, photographs, and so on? I wasn't able to find anything more than the bare design and dimensions...
Thank you very much for your help!
I'm a total newbie to diy and have finally mustered the funds for my first ever speaker project.
As I wouldn't have a clue on how to build a cross-over I was thinking about some full rangers, and after some reading I got the impression the Jordan JX92HD+ seem like a pretty safe bet.
I have seen the most popular projects for the JX92S and really love the looks of the classic VTL design by Ted Jordan, also it seems to be reasonably simple to build, but I'm not sure if the new HD+ drivers can be used with it and I was hoping to find reassurance here. I was also wondering if the MarkAudio drivers could be used in alternative and wether they would sound better or worse.
Could anybody please tell me where I could find the detailed projects for the VTLs', possibly with step by step instructions, photographs, and so on? I wasn't able to find anything more than the bare design and dimensions...
Thank you very much for your help!
Nothing is "safe".
In terms of building, I do not know if the particular project ur interested in is documented, here or elsewhere. Did you do a search?
In general terms, drivers of similar T/S parameters can be substituted freely in a cabinet designed for a given T/S parameter(s). 10-20% variation in any parameter likely will not be a big change in result.
Generally speaking one wants to pick a driver and then design/build the cabinet to match.
For general building tips and ideas, there are a great many speaker builds documented in DiyAudio's posts. Looking at them should help you figure out what you want or need to do.
If you want help on a specific project, like this "VTL", people might read ur post who know it or use it - or you can post a link to the project and get some comments that way too.
_-_-bear
In terms of building, I do not know if the particular project ur interested in is documented, here or elsewhere. Did you do a search?
In general terms, drivers of similar T/S parameters can be substituted freely in a cabinet designed for a given T/S parameter(s). 10-20% variation in any parameter likely will not be a big change in result.
Generally speaking one wants to pick a driver and then design/build the cabinet to match.
For general building tips and ideas, there are a great many speaker builds documented in DiyAudio's posts. Looking at them should help you figure out what you want or need to do.
If you want help on a specific project, like this "VTL", people might read ur post who know it or use it - or you can post a link to the project and get some comments that way too.
_-_-bear
Those look very similar to Planet10s Pensil series for MarkAudio drivers. They are indeed a very easy to build and you will find plans on p10s website and lots of discussion and tips on this and the MarkAudio forum.
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/pensils/Pensil-Series-complete-100711.pdf
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/pensils/Pensil-Series-complete-100711.pdf
Upon further review the vtl's look more like the half-towers for MA chr-70 or CSS el-70. Should be just as simple a build but I think more pensils have been built and are preferred. http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/microTower-maps-150909.pdf
Thank you everyone for the informations. I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier but I have taken some time to do a little reading and I've realised that there some very interesting projects that I didn't know anything about, and some of them are really appealing!
I think I have to work out a little better my room constraints and musical preferences in order to pick the right project before I get to the building stage. The speakers would have to go in a medium/large room (roughly 40 square meters) of rectangular shape, and would be located on the long wall (front wall from listening position) therefore they will not be close to corners, I can afford to place them at maximum 1,5m from the front wall.
I listen mainly to classical music, jazz, blues, and rock.
As I alredy mentioned I'd rather not embark in a crossover as I have next to no skill with a soldering iron, and that's the main reason I would like to go with a full range driver. Once I pick the speakers I'll be looking for a suitable amplifier, but I'd rather not go for diy there because I really don't think I could pull it through...
What I would like are some full rangers that really are full range, with great lows and excellent highs unaffected by beaming, and of course that incredibile mid range full rangers are famous for! Perhaps I'm asking too much...
My budget for the speakers is max 1000 euros finished, but I'd definitely prefer to spend less, I can do the wood work with the help of my father in law who is a skilled woodworker and has most of the tools needed, but I will outsource the finishing of the cabinets (Black or white lacker) so I need to factor it in the costs.
For the Time being I found particularly interesting the Jordan JX92HD+, and MarkAudio drivers, I seem to understand that they are amongst the fullest full-rangers out there. The designs I seem to understand get best reviews are the VTL, the MLTQWP, and ML-TL for the Jordan drivers and Pensil designs and Frugel Horn MK3 for Mark Audio drivers. When it comes to looks (no idea how they sound) I really like the VTL and FHMK3, but sound comes first of course!
I'd really appreciate any help in deciding what to go for!
Thanks,
Alessio
I think I have to work out a little better my room constraints and musical preferences in order to pick the right project before I get to the building stage. The speakers would have to go in a medium/large room (roughly 40 square meters) of rectangular shape, and would be located on the long wall (front wall from listening position) therefore they will not be close to corners, I can afford to place them at maximum 1,5m from the front wall.
I listen mainly to classical music, jazz, blues, and rock.
As I alredy mentioned I'd rather not embark in a crossover as I have next to no skill with a soldering iron, and that's the main reason I would like to go with a full range driver. Once I pick the speakers I'll be looking for a suitable amplifier, but I'd rather not go for diy there because I really don't think I could pull it through...
What I would like are some full rangers that really are full range, with great lows and excellent highs unaffected by beaming, and of course that incredibile mid range full rangers are famous for! Perhaps I'm asking too much...
My budget for the speakers is max 1000 euros finished, but I'd definitely prefer to spend less, I can do the wood work with the help of my father in law who is a skilled woodworker and has most of the tools needed, but I will outsource the finishing of the cabinets (Black or white lacker) so I need to factor it in the costs.
For the Time being I found particularly interesting the Jordan JX92HD+, and MarkAudio drivers, I seem to understand that they are amongst the fullest full-rangers out there. The designs I seem to understand get best reviews are the VTL, the MLTQWP, and ML-TL for the Jordan drivers and Pensil designs and Frugel Horn MK3 for Mark Audio drivers. When it comes to looks (no idea how they sound) I really like the VTL and FHMK3, but sound comes first of course!
I'd really appreciate any help in deciding what to go for!
Thanks,
Alessio
Just stumbled on these:
Sylphe - RumoH - Caps, coils and speakers
I love the looks! Anybody heard them?
Sylphe - RumoH - Caps, coils and speakers
I love the looks! Anybody heard them?
That 8" TB is one of the few speakers I've seen that, given the correct cabinet, will do bass (to about 40Hz) and up high enough in the treble so that you'd only want a super-tweeter out of personal taste: there's enough for most people.
However, in a large room with the volume turned up, they will struggle as cone break-up comes to the fore and you end up with a very piercing upper midrange. I'm told that cone treatments can help with this to some extent, but there's only so much that can be done.
If you want some speakers to properly rock out to, go for something like the Eminence Beta 12LT - not a full-range driver (you'll need a tweeter), not particularly high fidelity, but there's that dynamic range and sheer volume available (for parties etc) that a home hifi driver (certainly of the full range variety) will struggle to match. These are, after all, Pro Audio drivers.
Chris
However, in a large room with the volume turned up, they will struggle as cone break-up comes to the fore and you end up with a very piercing upper midrange. I'm told that cone treatments can help with this to some extent, but there's only so much that can be done.
If you want some speakers to properly rock out to, go for something like the Eminence Beta 12LT - not a full-range driver (you'll need a tweeter), not particularly high fidelity, but there's that dynamic range and sheer volume available (for parties etc) that a home hifi driver (certainly of the full range variety) will struggle to match. These are, after all, Pro Audio drivers.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info. I don't need party speakers as I've got a home theatre set up in the same room with 4 Infinity Beta 50 towers, C360 Center and 2 Beta 20 stand mounters, plus an Infinity SW-10 Sub (I'll add another soon) driven by an HK DPR2005 receiver that has 120W per channel into 8 Ohm, so very loud partying and rock concert volume Metallica sessions are pretty much sorted!
What I'm looking for is a very refined and accomploshed set of speakers for critical listening at civilised, moderately loud volumes, do you reckon the TB drivers in the kit I linked above would be right for this purpose? Are they better than the MarkAudio or Jordan drivers mentioned before?
Thanks for the advice
Thanks for the info. I don't need party speakers as I've got a home theatre set up in the same room with 4 Infinity Beta 50 towers, C360 Center and 2 Beta 20 stand mounters, plus an Infinity SW-10 Sub (I'll add another soon) driven by an HK DPR2005 receiver that has 120W per channel into 8 Ohm, so very loud partying and rock concert volume Metallica sessions are pretty much sorted!
What I'm looking for is a very refined and accomploshed set of speakers for critical listening at civilised, moderately loud volumes, do you reckon the TB drivers in the kit I linked above would be right for this purpose? Are they better than the MarkAudio or Jordan drivers mentioned before?
Thanks for the advice
Thanks, I didn't know that, so I presume it would be better to just avoid the Jordans altogether since I wouldn't be able to come up with a cabinet design of my own...
Do you think the FHMK3 with Alpair 7.3 drivers would suit a medium/ large room with a placement that wouldn'allow for corner reinforcement if they are not required rocking volumes? Or should I go for larger drivers like the TBs' mentioned before?
Thanks again
Do you think the FHMK3 with Alpair 7.3 drivers would suit a medium/ large room with a placement that wouldn'allow for corner reinforcement if they are not required rocking volumes? Or should I go for larger drivers like the TBs' mentioned before?
Thanks again
Actually I'm wondering the exact same thing. I would like a full range, wife friendly (read: no 10 ft horns) in my 20 x 40 ft living room with 10 to 20 ft ceilings.
Are bipole speakers louder or better to fill larger spaces? Or are there similar designs as the pencil series with two full rangers in parallel?
Are bipole speakers louder or better to fill larger spaces? Or are there similar designs as the pencil series with two full rangers in parallel?
FH3 with A7.3 doesn't need corners (corner loaded you would be working to get the bass levels down).
Don't know what you consider med/large, but, at the levels i listen to, 20 W & a set of FH3/A7 satisfies me in my fairly large room.
jordan-usa.com has designs for the new drivers. But, at least here in North America, you can buy a pair of the A7.3 for the price of a single JX92. IMO A7.3 is quite a bit better (i just sold off my JX92)
dave
Don't know what you consider med/large, but, at the levels i listen to, 20 W & a set of FH3/A7 satisfies me in my fairly large room.
jordan-usa.com has designs for the new drivers. But, at least here in North America, you can buy a pair of the A7.3 for the price of a single JX92. IMO A7.3 is quite a bit better (i just sold off my JX92)
dave
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info. I don't need party speakers as I've got a home theatre set up in the same room with 4 Infinity Beta 50 towers, C360 Center and 2 Beta 20 stand mounters, plus an Infinity SW-10 Sub (I'll add another soon) driven by an HK DPR2005 receiver that has 120W per channel into 8 Ohm, so very loud partying and rock concert volume Metallica sessions are pretty much sorted!
What I'm looking for is a very refined and accomploshed set of speakers for critical listening at civilised, moderately loud volumes, do you reckon the TB drivers in the kit I linked above would be right for this purpose? Are they better than the MarkAudio or Jordan drivers mentioned before?
Thanks for the advice
You're welcome.
I found that the smaller drivers simply won't go low enough in the bass. This is a personal preference; I can see how the FH3 with a MA Alp7 would satisfy most people.
However, switching between those and some larger speakers (that will hit 30Hz cleanly) revealed there was definitely some low end missing from the FH3.
Based on that, I'd go with the other version of that Tang Band - the one you linked is more suited to larger horn designs.
The other version (with the higher Qts of the two) will take a reasonably-sized ported box and will get you to a solid 40Hz, which is about as low as most music needs.
The Tang Band drivers are considerably more expensive than the Mark Audio drivers. The problem with HiFi is the diminishing returns - yes, the TBs are (IMO) better sounding, but I wouldn't think about buying them when the Mark Audio drivers do almost as well at a fraction of the price. This is partially because I'm a teenager on a budget: guitaring tends to take priority.
Also, it might be worth taking a look at the new Fostex range. There have been lots of favourable reports on the new drivers - think of them as a smaller Xmax, more efficient version of the Mark Audio drivers.
HTH
Chris
Before the neo price spike, i thoy the TBs were on the edge of value for the dollar, recent price increases have pushed that metric into "not so good for the $$). PS: i favour the W8-1808 version,
I think that my favorite Mark Audios are better than either of the TBs, and they leave enuff change to add some real woofers, if you find the need to fill in as Chris does.
I can say for certainty that our FAST MTM sure brings some things to the table that the single FR doesn't. Most of my FR boxes our designed with the idea in mind that a woofer can be built that acts as a stand.
Seen here on the far left of this family portrait Chris just sent me (most of the speakers he has in the house)
dave
Attachments
from L to R
CSS EL166 (Mark's silly good budget 6" woofer) MTM with Fostex FF85K
Alpair 7.3 in trapezoid MarKen
Alpair 10.2 in rectangular MarKen
Alpair 7 in Pensil
CSS EL70 (x2) in Castle Microtower
hidden behind the screen is one of the dual corner enclosures with dual 7" Eastech woofers used with the Pensils in 5.1 rig, as well as corner /soffitt mounted Alpair 6M rear surrounds at the other end of room
CSS EL166 (Mark's silly good budget 6" woofer) MTM with Fostex FF85K
Alpair 7.3 in trapezoid MarKen
Alpair 10.2 in rectangular MarKen
Alpair 7 in Pensil
CSS EL70 (x2) in Castle Microtower
hidden behind the screen is one of the dual corner enclosures with dual 7" Eastech woofers used with the Pensils in 5.1 rig, as well as corner /soffitt mounted Alpair 6M rear surrounds at the other end of room
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Thank you all very much for the useful infos!
@Chris: please bare with me, I'm in no way familiar with diy speaker construction and I'm afraid I got a little lost when you mentioned another TB driver, let alone the new Fostexs.. Which one would that be? I think I understood from your post that the kit I linked above is not ideal for the driver it employs, would you by any chance be able to give me a link to a better kit, or at least some foolproof project with step by step instructions? I really wouldn't know what to do with a great driver if it was up to me to design a cabinet!
@Dave: That is one sweet looking assortment of speakers you'got there, congratulations!
I really like the looks and elegantly simple design principles of the Frugel Horns MK3, and my heart is half set on them, but I don't like the idea of supporting them with a sub, it kind of seems to defeat the purpose of a full range driver. The living room they would have to play in would not be much larger then your listening room, so presumably SPL ought to be fine, what do you think is the best driver for them? Assuming that you were not considering value for money a top priority would you still go with the FHMK3 or is there some easy to build foolproof kit you believe might best them?
Once again thank you all for your help, and a happy new year!
@Chris: please bare with me, I'm in no way familiar with diy speaker construction and I'm afraid I got a little lost when you mentioned another TB driver, let alone the new Fostexs.. Which one would that be? I think I understood from your post that the kit I linked above is not ideal for the driver it employs, would you by any chance be able to give me a link to a better kit, or at least some foolproof project with step by step instructions? I really wouldn't know what to do with a great driver if it was up to me to design a cabinet!
@Dave: That is one sweet looking assortment of speakers you'got there, congratulations!
I really like the looks and elegantly simple design principles of the Frugel Horns MK3, and my heart is half set on them, but I don't like the idea of supporting them with a sub, it kind of seems to defeat the purpose of a full range driver. The living room they would have to play in would not be much larger then your listening room, so presumably SPL ought to be fine, what do you think is the best driver for them? Assuming that you were not considering value for money a top priority would you still go with the FHMK3 or is there some easy to build foolproof kit you believe might best them?
Once again thank you all for your help, and a happy new year!
There is no such thing as a true 10 octave FR (there are vanishingly low number of multiways that do 10 octaves too). My personal feeling is that i's be loath to give up the critical midrange. This is usually best in the smaller drivers (all the time in my experience so far). Then i either live with the shortcomings (usually at the extreme bottom and in the weight & physical drame) or augment.
I can live with any of the boxes in Chris' picture, but if i absolutely needed weighty bass into the 20s i go the route exemplified with the MTM rather than a larger FR (usually more $$$ too) that can't go that low anyway and would sacrifice mid & top to get it.
My next big project will be an A7/4xSDX7 FAST which should have to make no excuses to most anything. A7 will do the top 7 octaves & beyond. Removal of bass octaves will improve its mid & top capability.
FH3 is really a killer project. It starts out with a nice balance of compromises, and is further tunable to specific needs throu driver choice.
With A7 or EL70 or CHP70 (older) bass is there, and with still the mid/top. Its not going to slam you in the chest, but does give a good foundation to make the music enjoyable.
If it isn't enuff you know what your 2nd project is (from the money you saved not buying the TBs)
dave
There are 2 TBs that look like the ones you posted, W8-1772, WB-1808. The one pictures was actually 1772, my pref is for the 1808.
dave
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