Over the last year I've been tinkering away at a home theatre.
Up until recently, I have been largely too busy to care, but since I just finished another year of university, I wanted to get this finished before I start other larger projects.
My end goal is to eventually have a 5.1 setup, perhaps 7.2 later on. Sub is last since to me offers the least benefit with the most cost.
What I have so far are these: a pair of saburos with no stands (another project) with some fostex 126eN for the mains, and a pair of pensils with CHR-70's for the rears. Until now I had been using a cheap (free) pioneer 3 way car speaker as a center which works but I hate it more with every passing day.
What I would like to do currently is build something to work as a center channel that would match visually the rest of the set. I have no clue what would serve as a appropriate center for my setup unfortunately...
An idea I had would be to build a single double folded horn (something from the "spawn family" perhaps), and have it sitting on its side? I had placed one of my saburos sideways a while back to see how it sounded, and it seemed to work okay.
Some room details & requirements:
largish room, ~17'x25'
sitting roughly 8' from the screen/speakers
whatever I make can only be as high as 8" but can be up to 10' wide, and it can be angled to direct the sound to ear level.
Audio is going from Playstation3 -> Linear PCM to Marantz sr4002 -> speakers
Center should probably match the rears driver wise.
As an aside, I have considered a phantom center, but it isnt very suitable to this space. Furthermore, Since the PS3 is using PCM to send the sound, all the receiver is doing is amplifying the sound. To get a phantom center, I would need to give up Dolby trueHD which is not something I want to do.
Up until recently, I have been largely too busy to care, but since I just finished another year of university, I wanted to get this finished before I start other larger projects.
My end goal is to eventually have a 5.1 setup, perhaps 7.2 later on. Sub is last since to me offers the least benefit with the most cost.
What I have so far are these: a pair of saburos with no stands (another project) with some fostex 126eN for the mains, and a pair of pensils with CHR-70's for the rears. Until now I had been using a cheap (free) pioneer 3 way car speaker as a center which works but I hate it more with every passing day.
What I would like to do currently is build something to work as a center channel that would match visually the rest of the set. I have no clue what would serve as a appropriate center for my setup unfortunately...
An idea I had would be to build a single double folded horn (something from the "spawn family" perhaps), and have it sitting on its side? I had placed one of my saburos sideways a while back to see how it sounded, and it seemed to work okay.
Some room details & requirements:
largish room, ~17'x25'
sitting roughly 8' from the screen/speakers
whatever I make can only be as high as 8" but can be up to 10' wide, and it can be angled to direct the sound to ear level.
Audio is going from Playstation3 -> Linear PCM to Marantz sr4002 -> speakers
Center should probably match the rears driver wise.
As an aside, I have considered a phantom center, but it isnt very suitable to this space. Furthermore, Since the PS3 is using PCM to send the sound, all the receiver is doing is amplifying the sound. To get a phantom center, I would need to give up Dolby trueHD which is not something I want to do.
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As the center channel is actually the most important speaker in the system , I'd generally be inclined to recommend using the same driver model for all three in the front row to retain consistency of voicing, but it'd be a bit of a trick to approach the bandwidth and dynamics of Saburos using the FE126E in a enclosure as small as most commonly used in the center. During some recent playing about with a small surround system using all Mark Audio drivers, (still only 3.1 as home reno projects have kept me from getting the rear surrounds done - the biggest issue actually being the wiring), I had occasion to compare Alpair 10.2 vs Alpair7 for L&R, with Alpair for center. With the front row all the same model the integration and panning was more seamless.
I was previously somewhat agnostic in regards to sub(s) in this system, but after a thorough read of Floyd Toole's latest text, I finally got around to building a pair of corner mounted enclosures (dual 7" Eastech drivers). I'm aware of the FE126E's capabilities in Saburo or Valiant full size double mouth horn, but even if you think your mains are capable of "full-range" bandwidth, do not underestimate the contribution of (multiple) separate sub(s) to not only the big sound effects, but the sense of realism of background/ambient LF information. Furthermore, room acoustics being what they are, the least compromised placement location(s) for bass drivers in terms of even distribution to all listening positions will often be quite removed from the front row 3.
edit:
oops, I've got to stop scanning these posts to quickly, I missed seeing your comment on trying the Sab lying on it's side. It might actually be a very good idea to try something like that for the center - laid this way, the cabinet could be short and wide enough to serve as a stand for a big screen TV if not already wall-mounted.
but whatever way you go, I think you definitely want to use the same model driver for the center.
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>>> it'd be a bit of a trick to approach the bandwidth and dynamics of Saburos using the FE126E in a enclosure as small as most commonly used in the center.
I'd consider building a smaller double mouth horn to lay on its side if you have the space. Sonically it would match best. Your setup looks stellar... it will be a fun system to listen too. I agree with chrisb about the importance of subs... H-frames would be nice and rumble the room if you can fit a pair in somehow. Not too expensive either.
Zilla
I'd consider building a smaller double mouth horn to lay on its side if you have the space. Sonically it would match best. Your setup looks stellar... it will be a fun system to listen too. I agree with chrisb about the importance of subs... H-frames would be nice and rumble the room if you can fit a pair in somehow. Not too expensive either.
Zilla
I certainly haven't discounted the benefits of a sub. Personally though, the cost relative to what it adds are not enough to make it the must have item in my system. Especially since I have just started the a full restoration of a 1963 spitfire, and have at least 1 other ongoing HiFi project which are going to consume much of my time, money, and interest for the time being.
Another thing to do before I make a sub is to sort out room acoustics, since this room is literally empty other than the speakers and the couches. Probably build some free standing bass traps or something...
Are there any shortcomings to having a folded horn on its side relative to sound dispersion? I imagine it would be okay, or at least no worse than most standard design centers.
I attached a pic of the space, as you can see, I dont have much height to work with, but it can be up to 10' wide. Also in the pic is the hateful little speaker that I currently use as a center.
Another thing to do before I make a sub is to sort out room acoustics, since this room is literally empty other than the speakers and the couches. Probably build some free standing bass traps or something...
Are there any shortcomings to having a folded horn on its side relative to sound dispersion? I imagine it would be okay, or at least no worse than most standard design centers.
I attached a pic of the space, as you can see, I dont have much height to work with, but it can be up to 10' wide. Also in the pic is the hateful little speaker that I currently use as a center.
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In short, a sideways folded horn could probably work, but I think a more intriguing question would be regarding what appears to be an almost full height screen for projector, which complicates the size & mounting configuration of any center channel enclosure. You could of course angle mount above or below the screen, but even after contending with boundary reflections, I think the perspective of the most prominent program content would be skewed in relation to the flanking sides.
If the screen is acoustically transparent and can be moved out from the wall, a single vertically oriented Saburo could be mounted behind the screen, ( actually all 3 behind would be ideal - just like in real theaters) .
As to "Home theater" without sub(s), I guess I'm a recent convert to the cause, but it's definitely not the same without it. Multiple small(er) subs have many advantages, one of which is that with careful placement, more even distribution of LF information can be achieved, possibly without the need for use of bass traps.
In any case, I'd suggest any acoustic treatment, particularly implementing bass traps in the room absent the eventual (if minimal) furnishing would be premature.
Of course, I could be all wet.
A highly recommended read:
Unfortunately, the screen is nowhere near acoustically transparent, so I am limited to either top (rather not, but it is possible) or bottom. I also don't want to make a full on third Saburo. I would rather one of the simpler double folded horns.
The furnishing in the room is not going to change for the foreseeable future. Any acousting treatment I make in this room is going to be removable. Largely because this is in my parents basement. Since I plan on moving out within the next two years, I want to bring as much of this with me.
I do intend on making a sub (or two) at some point. When I do, it will probably be something along the line of the Tuba subs which should really get the room shaking.
This looks neat, and I see amazon has it in ebook format too!
The furnishing in the room is not going to change for the foreseeable future. Any acousting treatment I make in this room is going to be removable. Largely because this is in my parents basement. Since I plan on moving out within the next two years, I want to bring as much of this with me.
I do intend on making a sub (or two) at some point. When I do, it will probably be something along the line of the Tuba subs which should really get the room shaking.
A highly recommended read:
This looks neat, and I see amazon has it in ebook format too!
Most of the double folded horns that I'm familiar with for the FE126E would be not all that much smaller than the Saburo, and several, including the single mouth FH3 are rear mouthed. One to consider for this application might be the Aiko, but even though somewhat smaller than the Saburo, it's not any less complicated a build
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Aiko-1v1-plan-231208.pdf
A simpler build that could marginally work might be the Gabriel:
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Brynn-GabrielChang-map-021107.pdf
but it's much wider (taller when laid sideways) than either the Sab or Aiko
How would you be powering them? With the quality of bass management available in current surround receivers, the XO's commonly still found on plate amps are redundant, and separate basic power amp is all that's really required. Stereo/bridgeable to mono would provide lots of flexibility.
Something like the Tubas that would shake a small room would be very impressive, but perhaps quickly distracting, and would certainly require heroic levels of treatment to tame. You might want to consider something smaller / sealed with decent 8" or so would give a more manageable form factor
this is the type of reference text that I think is worthy of a hard copy
The Gabriel's would probably work, I would just have to pull the speaker a bit further out from the screen so that from the sitting position, it doesn't interfere. If I have the front of the cabinet about 2 feet closer than the screen, I can get away with about 12" of height.
My receiver has the built in bass management but only pre-out for the sub. It would be straight forward then, to just use a regular amp with adequate power. I'll put more thought to that later, for now I really want to get the center sorted out. I've been delaying this for the better part of the last 10 months
...okay
I could always "acquire" an electronic copy to go with the hard copy, if only to have on my phone for moments of boredom when out and about.
My receiver has the built in bass management but only pre-out for the sub. It would be straight forward then, to just use a regular amp with adequate power. I'll put more thought to that later, for now I really want to get the center sorted out. I've been delaying this for the better part of the last 10 months
...okay
I could always "acquire" an electronic copy to go with the hard copy, if only to have on my phone for moments of boredom when out and about.
As the Brynn/Gabriel are under 11", that should be plenty of height - although you'd want to tilt them up a bit.
I've used anything to drive woofers from basic power amps (mine happens to be a Rotel RB850) to old stereo receivers - you'll just want to ensure adequate power ( 50-60 W min?) , particularly if using small sealed enclosures that are handier to place and can have far more benign roll-off slopes than vented or horn subs. .
I know the feeling, it took me about 4 months after updating my latest HT rig to decide on the center, and over 4 years after going to the HD screen to even start it - and I still haven't gotten around to the rear/surrounds. Hiding the wire run in the double layered drywall ceiling will be the biggest pain - due to the shape of room and location of a staircase, it's gonna be at least 50ft from the amp to one of them.for now I really want to get the center sorted out. I've been delaying this for the better part of the last 10 months
Doncha just hate it when the real world gets in the way of your "simple plans"?
...okay
I could always "acquire" an electronic copy to go with the hard copy, if only to have on my phone for moments of boredom when out and about.
no comment
oh, that is
have fun
Someone gave me the Toole book for my birthday. It was legal and cheap! 
Big respect for your current set of speakers. If it was me, with that space, I would raise the screen a bit and build me another Saburo. I have heard a pair of BVRs from the Spawn family and it seemed like a very well designed speaker. Very clean and seamless bass sound. (In a room with highly variable designs, multiway, FAST and fullrange, TL, sealed and vented, cones and domes to ribbons, in my opinion it sounded very good.) I can't really say how well BVR matches to a large scale backloaded horn. I bet building a BVR would take much less time and material, so it might be a good idea to simply build the BVR design and see how it works out. If you don't like it, that will be your motivation to build the Saburo.
Perhaps the Brynn/Gabriel can be proportioned to look more like a Saburo for you by the designer?
Big respect for your current set of speakers. If it was me, with that space, I would raise the screen a bit and build me another Saburo. I have heard a pair of BVRs from the Spawn family and it seemed like a very well designed speaker. Very clean and seamless bass sound. (In a room with highly variable designs, multiway, FAST and fullrange, TL, sealed and vented, cones and domes to ribbons, in my opinion it sounded very good.) I can't really say how well BVR matches to a large scale backloaded horn. I bet building a BVR would take much less time and material, so it might be a good idea to simply build the BVR design and see how it works out. If you don't like it, that will be your motivation to build the Saburo.
Perhaps the Brynn/Gabriel can be proportioned to look more like a Saburo for you by the designer?
Well, it seems at this point, that I've resigned myself to building a third saburo. Since my end goal is to build a proper theater room once I get my own place, I would likely have ended up building a third one anyway. Having them all behind an acoustically transparent screen/wall, which I will also treat for acoustics and do it all right and proper. For the time being though, it will be on its side and angled roughly to ear level.
Now I just need to get around to ordering the driver and the wood. Anyone know places that still have the 126e? I see Dave has some unmatched 127eN, would that be close enough?
At least getting Baltic Birch is easy and cheap...
Now I just need to get around to ordering the driver and the wood. Anyone know places that still have the 126e? I see Dave has some unmatched 127eN, would that be close enough?
At least getting Baltic Birch is easy and cheap...
127 would need a different (possibly much smaller) enclosure design, but even after level setting on the surround receiver would not likely exactly match the dynamics & more forward soundstage presentation of the 126
contact Dave via PM regarding single of 126
The following would be close:
Scott's commercial redesign for FE127E BVR:
Woden Design | Venom-V
and the predecessor:
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/download/Olivia-1v0-map-311007.pdf
With Fostex's discontinuation of FE127E and impending release of new FF series, Scott has been concentrating on other areas.
Having built several of his enclosures over the past 5 years or so, I can attest that his designs have definitely advanced, and that the more recent plan sets are definitely worth the coin.
I emailed Dave, he might have some left. Pending on that, I will likely build the saburo. Otherwise I'll probably consider the Olivia or Gabriel. I could easily make cardboard mockups to see what fits best.
Considering I lived for close to a year with my current center, anything is really an improvement and I'm not -that- picky.
As an aside, any thoughts on the sonotube subs? I saw those at Home depot the other day and realized how cheap and easy it would be to make.
Considering I lived for close to a year with my current center, anything is really an improvement and I'm not -that- picky.
As an aside, any thoughts on the sonotube subs? I saw those at Home depot the other day and realized how cheap and easy it would be to make.
Ivan,
I want to hijack your thread again - or was it Douglas the last time when we started the PC and Mac discussion?
I have an uncle who's 70+ and is not happy with the sound coming out of his Samsung Series 5 (understandably so). His space is on 9" x 7.5" (wide), like a pocket opening into larger areas (I have attached my best attempt to draw the layout)... his complaint is that he finds dialogues muffled and special effects lacking - he really has to crank up the volume to uncomfortable levels in order to make the legible. I went to his place and largely agree with him, so it should not be a case of major hearing loss.
I posted a month back but with few responses - decided at that time on a baby Tysen but not sure if uncle will want to spend that much and fear that such a system would be quite overpowering in that space.
I see Chrisb active in this thread and read a lot of his observations on HT - and they make sense/sound practical to me i.e. like not having rear/surrounds (a pain with the cabling, and uncle has a really small space there).
What options do I have quick and dirty to find another excuse for another build?
I have used the BIBs for watching TV programs and the levels of detail it can bring out is awesome (Dexter opening theme has plenty...)- so have faith in FR for the dialogues and music.
-Zia
I want to hijack your thread again - or was it Douglas the last time when we started the PC and Mac discussion?
I have an uncle who's 70+ and is not happy with the sound coming out of his Samsung Series 5 (understandably so). His space is on 9" x 7.5" (wide), like a pocket opening into larger areas (I have attached my best attempt to draw the layout)... his complaint is that he finds dialogues muffled and special effects lacking - he really has to crank up the volume to uncomfortable levels in order to make the legible. I went to his place and largely agree with him, so it should not be a case of major hearing loss.
I posted a month back but with few responses - decided at that time on a baby Tysen but not sure if uncle will want to spend that much and fear that such a system would be quite overpowering in that space.
I see Chrisb active in this thread and read a lot of his observations on HT - and they make sense/sound practical to me i.e. like not having rear/surrounds (a pain with the cabling, and uncle has a really small space there).
What options do I have quick and dirty to find another excuse for another build?
I have used the BIBs for watching TV programs and the levels of detail it can bring out is awesome (Dexter opening theme has plenty...)- so have faith in FR for the dialogues and music.
-Zia
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Hi Zia -
I'm not nearly the expert that Chris(b) or P10 are - but for such a small space - if it were me - I would be looking at the mMarS-1vo http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/mMarS-1v0-map-231009.pdf
Small speaker for a small space - if you need more bass for HT add a sub.
I'm not nearly the expert that Chris(b) or P10 are - but for such a small space - if it were me - I would be looking at the mMarS-1vo http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/mMarS-1v0-map-231009.pdf
Small speaker for a small space - if you need more bass for HT add a sub.
Zia - another Dexter fan - now that caught my attention -(the moody closing theme is just as interesting in a different way - a reminder that we all have to come to terns with our own dark passenger)
FWIW, I do intend to get around to rear surrounds, but running the wires & patching will definitely take more time than building the boxes.
I'm not sure about being expert at anything but recounting my own experiences/impressions - but I'd definitely concur with c2T's suggestion of something along the size / form-factor of the little "millie" .
FWIW, I do intend to get around to rear surrounds, but running the wires & patching will definitely take more time than building the boxes.
I'm not sure about being expert at anything but recounting my own experiences/impressions - but I'd definitely concur with c2T's suggestion of something along the size / form-factor of the little "millie" .
Right, that one is cool too - melancholy and introspective... a friend told me it's called Dexter's Theme. To think of it, Dexter can be a good speaker builder also... he's good at planning things, patient, meticulous, and very good with tools!
Thanks for the pointer c2cthomas. However the only CHR-70s I have with me are Dave's ones, and I am not parting with those so quickly... so will look for a few alternatives in the meantime.
Is the Mar-Kel70 too powerful?
-Zia
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I want to hijack your thread again - or was it Douglas the last time when we started the PC and Mac discussion?
That`s very much alright. I learned what I needed to already.
I third the smaller box + small sub approach. Also, for a space that big/small I wouldn't worry about setting up any sort of surround sound. Even on my setup, just for films, I don't find that it really adds enough to the experience to make it worth it. This is largely due to the mastering of the soundtrack, can`t make noise from the back to prominent otherwise viewers get confused. Also the reason voice is only from the center (much to my annoyance). These issues are non existent for video games where the surround really makes a huge difference. But I doubt that your 70 year old uncle will do much of that.
I would also definitely try and get another pair of CHR-70, either that or the paper variant. CHP-70 on mark's website, and EL-70 on Creative Sound. Not sure how economical it is to get either to Dhaka though...
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