Think you might wish to share with us what your configuration is? A big box with two L-pads on the back? Bi-amped? Tri-amped? EQ?
Naturally, I check the flatness and cleanness of electronics with some care as far down the circuit as I can... to the speaker terminals if they are showing (exception is ESLs, of course). A Denon test-tone CD gives me a CD-to-oscilloscope complete system picture. For sure, you want to confirm your cross-over channels are tracking and otherwise identical.
But I have never found any instrumentation at all useful for final acoustic tune-up except for a bass sweep tone band I've been listening to for 53 years. I also have some pet recordings - like with bells or music boxes - that tell me pretty fast what my tweeter level is doing.
Naturally, I check the flatness and cleanness of electronics with some care as far down the circuit as I can... to the speaker terminals if they are showing (exception is ESLs, of course). A Denon test-tone CD gives me a CD-to-oscilloscope complete system picture. For sure, you want to confirm your cross-over channels are tracking and otherwise identical.
But I have never found any instrumentation at all useful for final acoustic tune-up except for a bass sweep tone band I've been listening to for 53 years. I also have some pet recordings - like with bells or music boxes - that tell me pretty fast what my tweeter level is doing.
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Be good to know where your crossover point is. For example in you are the 700Hz region you can do what you have been doing. You need to set the crossover for the optimum transition between drivers. The room effects on the bass are secondary. Get the transition right and the rest should fall right into place.
Rob
Rob
I'm a huge believer in measurement- I use it right up to the point where I have to listen to music. Then, it's all ears. I have a level control on my active crossover for lo, mid and high. One of them will always end up at max, so I start with everything at max and just tune two of them down from there with a variety of music. Naturally it's not that simple because I also moved the crossover points somewhat, not to mention moving the speakers around. Though I don't believe in "time alignment", I do believe in directionality caused by the location of the tweeter. IMO, being able to move the tweeter in and out by a few inches is highly valuable. To get really happy with the system probably took a good few months of fine tuning. (I did do some sweeps to be sure nothing was wildly wrong. In the past I've used third octave measurements, but concluded I just don't like flat response.)
All my sentiments too but I'll say it is a wise post anyway.
Why do you suppose microphone flat is not perceptual flat? Or are we talking about mic flat versus personal joy?
Footnote: after I diddle with the many crossover parameters on my Behringer CX3400, I like to fine-tune the knob settings by meter. Otherwise, there might be some irregularities and it is never feasible (or possible) to sort them out by ear after.
Why do you suppose microphone flat is not perceptual flat? Or are we talking about mic flat versus personal joy?
Footnote: after I diddle with the many crossover parameters on my Behringer CX3400, I like to fine-tune the knob settings by meter. Otherwise, there might be some irregularities and it is never feasible (or possible) to sort them out by ear after.
Hello,
You do not hear flat.
Check out Dipole protos Mr. Linkwitz, yes the guy that invented your crossover sets his systems up with the bass end of things + 6db or so above the treble end of things, use a smooth taper.
Also check out Rane.com they recommend for pro sound to use two equalizers set the first one dead flat, lock it, post a guard and adjust the second for the room.
DT
All Just For Fun!
You do not hear flat.
Check out Dipole protos Mr. Linkwitz, yes the guy that invented your crossover sets his systems up with the bass end of things + 6db or so above the treble end of things, use a smooth taper.
Also check out Rane.com they recommend for pro sound to use two equalizers set the first one dead flat, lock it, post a guard and adjust the second for the room.
DT
All Just For Fun!
I think the key word there is "dipole". Is what you are referring to the 6dB/octave bass EQ, to compensate for the 6dB/octave open baffle rolloff?
Yes, good fun and thanks for links and to maxro too. I doubt a simple bass 6 dB filter would be a good correction for a dipole.
But anybody have an answer to why mic flat doesn't sound right (or if you disagree with that notion)?
Didn't Sean Olive have a blog on how people listen and what Curves they perfer? I think he test proved that people perfer a tilted down response.
It makes sense to me, I have always set my in room curve to have that sort of tilt.
My head is spinning!
Why do they prefer? Shouldn't we all prefer flat? I hope that sounds like a logical and psychologically-sound premise.
I set by ear and never have had any success with mic measurements.
Speaking of Olive... his "trained listeners" can tell little frequency tweaks in the electronics. So is he saying "they can tell the difference because they are trained but still prefer the tilt."? That will make anybody's head spin. Interesting blogs.
A flat response is most likely described as "lacking bass" or even "bright".
A room inherently creates gain in the bass region but still "House curve" type settings have been around for decades and even after I let audyssey do its thing I will create my own curve with the DCX.
In the end its 100% an individual's choice to what curve anyone likes.
When you say you have never had success by mic? What do you mean? I love running ARTA (pink noise) to get my room curve the way I like it. It correlates what I like to hear back to data.
A room inherently creates gain in the bass region but still "House curve" type settings have been around for decades and even after I let audyssey do its thing I will create my own curve with the DCX.
In the end its 100% an individual's choice to what curve anyone likes.
When you say you have never had success by mic? What do you mean? I love running ARTA (pink noise) to get my room curve the way I like it. It correlates what I like to hear back to data.
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Hello maxro,
The equalization I am speaking about is after all the open baffle corrections and adjustment for unequal outputs from the drivers. Like my reference to Rane, set it flat then adjust for the room.
The reason why flat does not work is that the flat adjustment should be done in a large open space without room effects. Reflections in the room makes it not possible to equalize the speakers to flat in the first place.
DT
All just for Fun!
The equalization I am speaking about is after all the open baffle corrections and adjustment for unequal outputs from the drivers. Like my reference to Rane, set it flat then adjust for the room.
The reason why flat does not work is that the flat adjustment should be done in a large open space without room effects. Reflections in the room makes it not possible to equalize the speakers to flat in the first place.
DT
All just for Fun!
Ah, but it might, if that lowpass were at the bottom end of the woofer's frequency range. For my next project I am planning an active OB with line level lowpass to the woofers' amp at 30Hz first order. As Linkwitz states on that link, with a low Q driver 6dB/oct won't suffice, but the inference is that with a high enough Q, it will. The drivers I will use have a Q of 0.5 which, at least in a Basta simulation, will work out flat to around 35Hz.
Dual Triode,
I searched that page on Linkwitz' site and could find no reference to 6dB higher level in the bass.
Now, as for the topic at hand, the Fletcher Munson curves are sound level dependent. So, maybe a self adjusting loudness curve linked to the volume knob would work. But, only if all the source material were recorded at the same level and flat.
Hello maxro,
You were looking for information regarding the forward sloping equalization curves in the Linkwitz link. About ¾ to 7/8 of the way into that page there are graphs showing his final setup. It has been several months since I set up my attempt but I recall the struggle setting up the Behringer 2496 RTA equalizer. I was ticked off at the sound when it was set flat. I went back looking at the Link and said Ah Ha I see when I saw the slope of the curves on his page. The OB’s I have set up are mounted on 2’- 0” X 4’ - 0”sheets of Baltic birch plywood, bottom is a pair of 10” Audax 10” woofers Q = 0.61 mids are Vifa’s, tweeters are also Vifa. The crossover points are 300 and 2500. There is a line level output 75Hz and down routed to a sealed sub-woofer much like a Thor.
(see THOR - subwoofer ).
Truth be told I rarely turn on the sub, bass is solid without it, thunder with it.
As far as bass loudness adjustments go I have several equalization curves saved in the Behringer digital RTA.
DT
All just for fun!
You were looking for information regarding the forward sloping equalization curves in the Linkwitz link. About ¾ to 7/8 of the way into that page there are graphs showing his final setup. It has been several months since I set up my attempt but I recall the struggle setting up the Behringer 2496 RTA equalizer. I was ticked off at the sound when it was set flat. I went back looking at the Link and said Ah Ha I see when I saw the slope of the curves on his page. The OB’s I have set up are mounted on 2’- 0” X 4’ - 0”sheets of Baltic birch plywood, bottom is a pair of 10” Audax 10” woofers Q = 0.61 mids are Vifa’s, tweeters are also Vifa. The crossover points are 300 and 2500. There is a line level output 75Hz and down routed to a sealed sub-woofer much like a Thor.
(see THOR - subwoofer ).
Truth be told I rarely turn on the sub, bass is solid without it, thunder with it.
As far as bass loudness adjustments go I have several equalization curves saved in the Behringer digital RTA.
DT
All just for fun!
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