Hi,
Yesterday I made a valid comparison between my gainclone (now upgraded with MSR860) and a Denon1801. This was done with a relay system that conmutated the output from both amps to my Advance Acoustic MA11e.
Well, veredict apart (a lot to be said here), it takes it's time to arrange a setup like this, but I think that differences can be showed this way. To say, this is not maybe the best system to test an amp, but I'm sure it's more or less a valid one.
My question is:
When you say "with those diodes the sound got more refined", "the soundstage is deeper" blablabla... have you tested this in a "technical" way (like A/B) or you maybe you trusted your ear memory?
This is not to start a discussion about how to best test an amp, but how you can say "this tweak improved things" if you only trust not your ears but your memory.
Yesterday I made a valid comparison between my gainclone (now upgraded with MSR860) and a Denon1801. This was done with a relay system that conmutated the output from both amps to my Advance Acoustic MA11e.
Well, veredict apart (a lot to be said here), it takes it's time to arrange a setup like this, but I think that differences can be showed this way. To say, this is not maybe the best system to test an amp, but I'm sure it's more or less a valid one.
My question is:
When you say "with those diodes the sound got more refined", "the soundstage is deeper" blablabla... have you tested this in a "technical" way (like A/B) or you maybe you trusted your ear memory?
This is not to start a discussion about how to best test an amp, but how you can say "this tweak improved things" if you only trust not your ears but your memory.
Raka said:
Very few people have made real A/B tests (I gather(?), I included) but when I have done it I'm amazed how small the differencies really are, except for tube amps.
Also the human ear forgets fast and adopts fast also. You get used to a certain sound rather fast.
But (hands up) have many really enjoy A/B tests? I
Yes, you have some true.
But, the wine example is not fully correct, to my point of view.
How can you say that the wine you had last week is better than the beer you are drinking now?
To me a better example is, If I wanted to compare two wines I think I'd like to have both at the same time (well, one after the other, with some "cleaning" food between them). Yes, one day I could prefer the wine to the beer, but how can I say this one is better to me than this.
If not compared directly, what I'm comparing is the satisfaction I get with the tweak, not the effect. I could even agree that somebody will have enough with this, but I'm trying to get the better sound at home without spending too much, and that means that I can't build 20 amps to discover that all sound equal.
Has anyone out there AB'd any gainclone? Really?
But, the wine example is not fully correct, to my point of view.
How can you say that the wine you had last week is better than the beer you are drinking now?
To me a better example is, If I wanted to compare two wines I think I'd like to have both at the same time (well, one after the other, with some "cleaning" food between them). Yes, one day I could prefer the wine to the beer, but how can I say this one is better to me than this.
If not compared directly, what I'm comparing is the satisfaction I get with the tweak, not the effect. I could even agree that somebody will have enough with this, but I'm trying to get the better sound at home without spending too much, and that means that I can't build 20 amps to discover that all sound equal.
Has anyone out there AB'd any gainclone? Really?
Since you are using the wine analogy, and this has to do with
sensory memory, I recently read about an interesting
experiment. There were two groups of test persons, one with
professional wine tasters and the other with randomly selected
people. What was tested was not their wine tasting ability per se,
but their sense of smell. First they were subjected to a number
of different smells, varying things like vanilla, tobacco etc. and
were told what the substance was. In the next round they
were subjected to smells without knowing what the substance
was. The result was that the wine tasters were no better than
the other group at identifying the various smells, but they
more often recognized a smell as something they had
experienced before, although they couldn't say what it was.
I might be slightly wrong in some details, and know nothing
about the statistical validity etc., maybe SY knows (?), but it
points to an interesting distinction between on the one hand
recognizing and on the other hand recognizing and identifying.
sensory memory, I recently read about an interesting
experiment. There were two groups of test persons, one with
professional wine tasters and the other with randomly selected
people. What was tested was not their wine tasting ability per se,
but their sense of smell. First they were subjected to a number
of different smells, varying things like vanilla, tobacco etc. and
were told what the substance was. In the next round they
were subjected to smells without knowing what the substance
was. The result was that the wine tasters were no better than
the other group at identifying the various smells, but they
more often recognized a smell as something they had
experienced before, although they couldn't say what it was.
I might be slightly wrong in some details, and know nothing
about the statistical validity etc., maybe SY knows (?), but it
points to an interesting distinction between on the one hand
recognizing and on the other hand recognizing and identifying.
You're right, Raka.
Nothing better than an A/B test.
On an A/B test anyone can pick a difference.
But if you have to stop everything to disconnect one amp and connect the other, you really have to pay attention and you have to be very experienced in that, and with a very trained ear.
Some people, though, don't believe in A/B tests, because it's subjective if you can't measure the difference.
Go figure...
Audio is subjecive, it's a matter of taste.
Nothing better than an A/B test.
On an A/B test anyone can pick a difference.
But if you have to stop everything to disconnect one amp and connect the other, you really have to pay attention and you have to be very experienced in that, and with a very trained ear.
Some people, though, don't believe in A/B tests, because it's subjective if you can't measure the difference.
Go figure...
Audio is subjecive, it's a matter of taste.
Raka
I am not sure if i understand your question properly. Whenever i make a change in an amp (only one at a time) i always listen going back and forth a few times within short time. For me this is enough, although i understand some people preference for more long term auditions. To develop a sensitive ear to relatively small changes takes time and effort - not so much in observing a difference but in determining if the difference is a step forward towards your concept of better sound or merely a difference. I also believe that long term sonic memory is also possible to improve but of little real use as sound quality at a particular location may change daily due to power supply, humidity and temperature fluctuations.
The ear/brain combo seems to work in amazing non-linear way and once focused on particular sound trait can not only perceive incredibly small differences but also attribute them excessive importance.
Does this answer your question? Probably not, but then we don't share the same ears, speakers, music preferences and experience
All this will determine whether amps sound similar or not.
The more you listen the more reliable your short/long term audio memory becomes and the less uncertain you'll be about changes. To use a relay assumes no trust in aural memory at all plus it unavoidably changes the sound due to contacts, magnetics, extra wiring.
cheers
peter
I am not sure if i understand your question properly. Whenever i make a change in an amp (only one at a time) i always listen going back and forth a few times within short time. For me this is enough, although i understand some people preference for more long term auditions. To develop a sensitive ear to relatively small changes takes time and effort - not so much in observing a difference but in determining if the difference is a step forward towards your concept of better sound or merely a difference. I also believe that long term sonic memory is also possible to improve but of little real use as sound quality at a particular location may change daily due to power supply, humidity and temperature fluctuations.
The ear/brain combo seems to work in amazing non-linear way and once focused on particular sound trait can not only perceive incredibly small differences but also attribute them excessive importance.
Does this answer your question? Probably not, but then we don't share the same ears, speakers, music preferences and experience
All this will determine whether amps sound similar or not.The more you listen the more reliable your short/long term audio memory becomes and the less uncertain you'll be about changes. To use a relay assumes no trust in aural memory at all plus it unavoidably changes the sound due to contacts, magnetics, extra wiring.
cheers
peter
I'm going to tell you a story:
As maybe you know, I play violin and in one of the training courses I've been, my teacher was testing some violins to change the one he was using in his concerts. The prices won't scarify you, he tested a 24000 euro italian, a 450000 euro french, and another one between them. Obviously, they sounded very different (much more different than the amps, btw). The conclusion of him was that the important thing was not the timbre, because once you play with it you get used to it and without reference near in time (after all, you only play one violin each session) you wouldn't be aware about it once a beautiful level is reached. The important thing was the timbre and loudness distribution in the complete octaves of the instrument, the "easyness" of the output level, control of the four strings sound and vibration, and the maximum output loudness.
Conclusion: He appreciated the same as we do in a hifi but in another language: Dynamics, flat response, detail, freedom of compression etc.
After him, I want in a system a dynamic sound with soundstage and timbrical accuracy.
Carlos, I really think that anyone that don't use AB at any level is trying to fool himself, in order to float the benchmark and taste. This is no problem, but I think that this way he couldn't go ahead in the way to get more quality, and I mean subjective quality, not objective.
Well, we are distracting the subject, that was to check if anyone has AB'd any gainclone.
As maybe you know, I play violin and in one of the training courses I've been, my teacher was testing some violins to change the one he was using in his concerts. The prices won't scarify you, he tested a 24000 euro italian, a 450000 euro french, and another one between them. Obviously, they sounded very different (much more different than the amps, btw). The conclusion of him was that the important thing was not the timbre, because once you play with it you get used to it and without reference near in time (after all, you only play one violin each session) you wouldn't be aware about it once a beautiful level is reached. The important thing was the timbre and loudness distribution in the complete octaves of the instrument, the "easyness" of the output level, control of the four strings sound and vibration, and the maximum output loudness.
Conclusion: He appreciated the same as we do in a hifi but in another language: Dynamics, flat response, detail, freedom of compression etc.
After him, I want in a system a dynamic sound with soundstage and timbrical accuracy.
Carlos, I really think that anyone that don't use AB at any level is trying to fool himself, in order to float the benchmark and taste. This is no problem, but I think that this way he couldn't go ahead in the way to get more quality, and I mean subjective quality, not objective.
Well, we are distracting the subject, that was to check if anyone has AB'd any gainclone.
Peter,
You're truly right saying more or less that the trained ear is better qualified to highlight differences in a AB test of amps.
The true is that I don't see difference in an AB, but I can detect how the pressure is applied to the bow, and how inclined is it to the strings. My ears are very well trained, also because I can find a very big difference between vynil and CD, and maybe between speaker cables.
What is aural memory?
You're truly right saying more or less that the trained ear is better qualified to highlight differences in a AB test of amps.
The true is that I don't see difference in an AB, but I can detect how the pressure is applied to the bow, and how inclined is it to the strings. My ears are very well trained, also because I can find a very big difference between vynil and CD, and maybe between speaker cables.
What is aural memory?
Raka said:
Yes, sorry, this could degenerate to a copy of the "Blind listening tests and amplifiers" thread.
I don't think that anyone has done that.
You had to make two exactly equal Gainclones, and then change one component on one of them and make an A/B test.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, when people make another one, they try to better it and then it's not exactly equal.
Maby I'm wrong and someone has done two exactly equal Gainclones.
It hasn't to be between two Gainclones, my original idea was to check if anyone has compared Gainclone and any other amp, including crappy blocks as my sony.
The test you describe can be useful to test components (I said "can" not "must" in purpose
No one does AB, not even as a second opinion?
The test you describe can be useful to test components (I said "can" not "must" in purpose
No one does AB, not even as a second opinion?
Carlos
Peter Daniel routinely does this with his GCs. So does Jonathan Carr. I personally would prefer changing one component at a time inside a single unit as there is too much variation between seemingly identical components in whole amps.
Raka
I have attended several violin makers competitions and have been fascinated by the difference in violin sound. Bad violins sometimes exhibit a sound i've always associated (probably wrongly) with high IMD
Interestingly, proffesional musicians are rarely obsessing about reproduced sound...
May i ask what comprises your system? I don't think a very sophisticated system is essential to perceive sound differences between amps or cables. What is more important is that the system is simple - not too many redundant amp stages, no real bad opamps and most importantly - speakers with simple crossovers.
Looking at the very distant past once i had a NAD3020 a pair of Cerwin Vega HED and a Pioneer turntable with Ortofon MC10 cart i never had problems hearing difference between cables/support etc. The speakers that were most revealing of differences were a pair of Lowther horns but they grew to be so painful on my ears that we had to part company.
cheers
peter
Peter Daniel routinely does this with his GCs. So does Jonathan Carr. I personally would prefer changing one component at a time inside a single unit as there is too much variation between seemingly identical components in whole amps.
Raka
I have attended several violin makers competitions and have been fascinated by the difference in violin sound. Bad violins sometimes exhibit a sound i've always associated (probably wrongly) with high IMD
Interestingly, proffesional musicians are rarely obsessing about reproduced sound...
May i ask what comprises your system? I don't think a very sophisticated system is essential to perceive sound differences between amps or cables. What is more important is that the system is simple - not too many redundant amp stages, no real bad opamps and most importantly - speakers with simple crossovers.
Looking at the very distant past once i had a NAD3020 a pair of Cerwin Vega HED and a Pioneer turntable with Ortofon MC10 cart i never had problems hearing difference between cables/support etc. The speakers that were most revealing of differences were a pair of Lowther horns but they grew to be so painful on my ears that we had to part company.
cheers
peter
My system?
Well, I have a DENON 1801amp, and the thorsten gainclone. As source I use mainly a TD160Mk1 +rega250+coralMC88 with a dedicated power supply (but I think you know that story ) and a DVD Pioneer 525 as CD player (using the analog output as it sounds better than the Denon DAC. As speakers, I use advance acoustic MA11e (1st order) with cat 5 TNT cables that work well. The MA11 are tweaked, because I changed the woofer to a Beyma that kicked the *** of the french. Yes, I know that is not so easy, I checked that the crossover is still almost valid, I was really lucky!!. Yep, many variables were checked and the crossover was still applicable.
The interconnects are standard, and the phono stage is the ESP project06 with NE5532.
I don't know wich is the weakest, but the reallity showed yesterday was crude.
Analog,
Have you spent 8 hours a day trying to get the damn passage in tune with the correct sound, and shades, and dynamics, and tempo, and phrasing, and style and listening to the complete picture with the others musicians?
Then you don't know why musicians are so easy to tell jokes. And it doesn't have to be about viola players 
Do you AB? Only with lovers...
Well, I have a DENON 1801amp, and the thorsten gainclone. As source I use mainly a TD160Mk1 +rega250+coralMC88 with a dedicated power supply (but I think you know that story
) and a DVD Pioneer 525 as CD player (using the analog output as it sounds better than the Denon DAC. As speakers, I use advance acoustic MA11e (1st order) with cat 5 TNT cables that work well. The MA11 are tweaked, because I changed the woofer to a Beyma that kicked the *** of the french. Yes, I know that is not so easy, I checked that the crossover is still almost valid, I was really lucky!!. Yep, many variables were checked and the crossover was still applicable.The interconnects are standard, and the phono stage is the ESP project06 with NE5532.
I don't know wich is the weakest, but the reallity showed yesterday was crude.
Analog,
Have you spent 8 hours a day trying to get the damn passage in tune with the correct sound, and shades, and dynamics, and tempo, and phrasing, and style and listening to the complete picture with the others musicians?
Then you don't know why musicians are so easy to tell jokes. And it doesn't have to be about viola players Do you AB? Only with lovers...
analog_sa said:
Yes, but he doesn't do A/B tests.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Peter.
analog_sa said:
Yes, but they are very picky about the instrument they play.
And when they buy and instrument they whant the best, and they always hear it.
But then they may hear to music on a boombox.
There are some few professional musicians that are also audio fanactics, though.
Neil Young never liked the sound of CDs, he prefers vinyl.
Raka
Very interesting. Your system certainly seems to make the grade. What are you using for system support? Very old/bad mains wiring? Surely you know others in your city where you can compare amps. Due mostly to simplicity i would imagine a GC to sound very different to a Denon. What kind of topology does the Denon use? Discretes?
cheers
peter
Very interesting. Your system certainly seems to make the grade. What are you using for system support? Very old/bad mains wiring? Surely you know others in your city where you can compare amps. Due mostly to simplicity i would imagine a GC to sound very different to a Denon. What kind of topology does the Denon use? Discretes?
cheers
peter
Peter,
the mains wiring is not old, but how can be bad a mains wiring?
The denon is an A/V amp, and has a discrete topology. The differences between them were that the denon seemed very slightly compressed and cavernous. But I insist, very, very small differences once the level is adjusted equally. I will try to rewire the gainclone, but not very enthusiastically. I wish it was a better amp, because it's so cheap and fun...
I still can't believe that no one has AB'd a gainclone.
the mains wiring is not old, but how can be bad a mains wiring?
The denon is an A/V amp, and has a discrete topology. The differences between them were that the denon seemed very slightly compressed and cavernous. But I insist, very, very small differences once the level is adjusted equally. I will try to rewire the gainclone, but not very enthusiastically.
I wish it was a better amp, because it's so cheap and fun...I still can't believe that no one has AB'd a gainclone.
Raka
I seldom get very excited about an amp but the GC is well worth the excitement. It delivers probably 80% of my SET PX25 at 1/10 of both the weight and cost. A friend who's only into valves and has a very nicelly tweaked 2A3/45/10Y (depending on his mood) had a listen to a very simple first edition GC in his system against his amp and was very impressed.
I have lived and listened to music in quite a few houses/flats. The sound at every place understandably differs. Some, though, are simply not meant for music, ie getting anything to sound decent at some places is almost impossible. Don't know if it's acoustic properties, really bad mains wire, mains pollution, structural vibrations or anything else but some places are simply cursed. Mains power quality is often suspected.
Well, i seem to have run out of ideas. Maybe your Denon uses 3875 outputs
chers
peter
I seldom get very excited about an amp but the GC is well worth the excitement. It delivers probably 80% of my SET PX25 at 1/10 of both the weight and cost. A friend who's only into valves and has a very nicelly tweaked 2A3/45/10Y (depending on his mood
) had a listen to a very simple first edition GC in his system against his amp and was very impressed.I have lived and listened to music in quite a few houses/flats. The sound at every place understandably differs. Some, though, are simply not meant for music, ie getting anything to sound decent at some places is almost impossible. Don't know if it's acoustic properties, really bad mains wire, mains pollution, structural vibrations or anything else but some places are simply cursed. Mains power quality is often suspected.
Well, i seem to have run out of ideas. Maybe your Denon uses 3875 outputs
chers
peter
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