Ribbon vs. compression driver - what to choose?

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The AMT aren't very accurate having a low treble bump and poor dynamics compared to a compression driver

Ribbons (real ones) are compressed,lack dynamics, and normally have very bad dispersion up and down, they are OK if you are used to regular high end type speakers but are toys compared to a compression driver

The compression drivers in a good horn like the 18 Sound and a little passive eq are the way to go
 
Re: Re: Ribbon vs. compression driver - what to choose?

Hmm, compression drivers are that much better? I thought maybe ribbons were more transparent and smooth, but at the cost of some dynamics. Which of the two technologies is the easiest to mate with a woofer in a two-way system?
 
Hi,

This is far too broad of a question to ask. They are night and day. On one hand you have a delicate driver suited to medium to small rooms and nearfield. On the other you have a robust driver that is usually mounted to a horn and used in larger venues for PA and the great outdoors. It's like asking which is better, a sports car or a four wheel drive?

EDIT: As far as mating to the Lambda, a compression driver will go lower and handle the power whereas a ribbon will be destroyed if crossed over low enough to deal with the 12" cone break-up. To make a good two way you might want to consider a more robust 2" exit driver and try and get the XO below 1K.
 
>>> To make a good two way you might want to consider a more robust 2" exit driver and try and get the XO below 1K.

I agree. Good suggestion. I find my 1" cheap compression driver (Eminence) crossed over high sounds very detailed and lifelike. Maybe it's because i spent my life listening to dome tweeters (which suck imo... sound so fizzy and fake).

Compression drivers can sound terrible but take that same driver and mount it in a proper horn for home use and cross it over so it's nasty sound is minimized and you can tame them beautifully. IMO of course. I've never heard a dome (regardless of price) come close to the dynamic realism of a compression driver.

Godzilla
 
It's an apples and oranges, or maybe apples and meat question.

Real ribbons made with aluminum foil have limited dynamic range, but are not compressed at all. In fact they have better dynamics than most drivers, and less distortion. But limited SPL.

Ribbons made by bonding a conductor to a substrate (kapton, poly-something, etc) are generally referred to as "leaf ribbons" and are fairly ubiquitous these days, they also have limited SPL and a different overall quality compared to real ribbons.

In the latter category there are some that are made for pro sound, PA/SR applications that do NOT have limited SPL and have very very low distortion levels at home listening levels. These will obliviate any dome or standard ribbon or standard compression driver. They also cost a pile of money.

Compression drivers vary all over the map and some are very good, and others are utter crap. Most imho are in the latter category. Ymmv. The better compression drivers, properly used and with appropriate amplification and MOST importantly a properly designed horn can be be quite excellent. Cheap usually doesn't fly here. Diy horns can be superior and better than 99% of the standard commercial offerings. The OS (Geddes) and Quadratic Expansion (Peavy) waveguides offer an interesting and relatively low cost way to go in terms of a "horn".

The main differential between the best of the (leaf) ribbons and the best of the compression driver horns comes in subjective perceptions (they don't sound the same at all) and in terms of polar response - they fill the room differently.

Bottom line on any speaker type is that it is very unusual to get very high performance from inexpensive drivers. There are exceptions, and used items that are quite worthy, but it's difficult to know without hearing them in a proper situation or trying them urself.

It also matters what ur trying to accomplish and how "sophisticated" a system u want to put together.

As is often the case, anything is better than nothing...

_-_-bear

PS. ur confronting a classic problem: matching to a 12" driver with something on top. Short answer, it doesn't work. Either you need the top end to go down to 500Hz or less, or else you need the 12" to run up where it gets very ragged and has horrible polar response. The usual solution in classic terms is a midrange driver, but that brings a host of other issues. Issues that literally fill up several JAES anthologies and countless text books trying to find viable solutions for... There are ways to get the top down lower, but those get large, fwiw... this is the short version...
 
Re: Re: Re: Ribbon vs. compression driver - what to choose?

Defo said:

...... Which of the two technologies is the easiest to mate with a woofer in a two-way system?

I would say a compression tweeter. I have no experience with the Beyma TPL-150, but according to the spec sheet (and in common with all ribbons) the vertical dispersion is very narrow (only 20 degrees). IMO, this is a problem, and it makes mating with a woofer in a two-way more difficult.

For a nice two-way, the trick is to use a crossover frequency where the polar responses of the woofer and the tweeter/horn match.

Example: A good horn for home use is the RCF H-100, which is a constant directivity (CD) horn with a dispersion of 90x70 degrees. A 12-inch has 90 degrees dispersion at about 1200 Hz. So there is your crossover frequency. Select a 12-inch with good extension to at least the double frequency. The Lambda TD12M is a good candidate. Another is the JBL 2204 or 2206H. Then select a compression tweeter which can handle this crossover frequency. I have very good experiences with the JBL 2426 and the Beyma CP380. Many reports good results with the B&C DE250. (See thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130499&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=2 )

Then make a crossover that compensates for the CD horns falloff at higher frequencies.

Many very good two-ways are made after these principes: Geddes Summas, JBL 4425/4430, etc.

Just my 0.02$

EE
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ribbon vs. compression driver - what to choose?

Is there a build with the RCF H-100 and the lambda drivers? I have 4 TD12S in boxes still waiting on something to match.

I do have Neopro5i/PHL1120 already matched with 2 other TD12S but I was looking for a two-way design also.

As for all the comments about Ribbons being not as good as compression drivers? Blah!! The Neopro5i is a very, very good tweeter and they definitely do not lack dynamics compared to domes. Crossover around 2K is perfect (btw, I have no concern for Vertical issues).
 
That is true but the SPL on any of these is well beyond what any average DIYer needs even in my family room which is 40 feet deep. The Neopro5i is damn loud according to my wife :D

Im very interested in building a 2-way compression driver/TD12S modelled similar to Geddes designs. Im just hoping the waveguide choice for me isnt as expensive as what he offers :(
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ribbon vs. compression driver - what to choose?

I have been using compression drivers exclusively for years and am more than happy with them.

I will be able to comment on the TPL150 and the NeoPro5i in comparison later this year when I get some for the next projects.

EspenE said:


I would say a compression tweeter. I have no experience with the Beyma TPL-150, but according to the spec sheet (and in common with all ribbons) the vertical dispersion is very narrow (only 20 degrees). IMO, this is a problem, and it makes mating with a woofer in a two-way more difficult.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I have never found the need for much vertical dispersion at typical home listening positions. In a studio nearfield monitor it may be more important.
 
PS. ur confronting a classic problem: matching to a 12" driver with something on top. Short answer, it doesn't work. Either you need the top end to go down to 500Hz or less, or else you need the 12" to run up where it gets very ragged and has horrible polar response. The usual solution in classic terms is a midrange driver, but that brings a host of other issues. Issues that literally fill up several JAES anthologies and countless text books trying to find viable solutions for... There are ways to get the top down lower, but those get large, fwiw... this is the short version...

Thats just wrong. A quality 12" like the AE is really good way beoynd the ideal XO point at 1200hz. The B&C 250, BMS 4550 and several other CD's will for home use work as low as 800hz.

I would recommend a compression driver for this purpose because it has a better polar response in a good waveguide and it's easier to make make the crossover "dissapear".

An alternative could be the TPL-150H. It's in a waveguide allready, with 102db effiency and works well down to 1200hz.

The TPL-150H are super good drivers which in my ears are more detailed than medium priced compression drivers, but they cost quite alot more aswell.
Just look at the measurement Beyma provides of the TPL 150H vs their own CD's like the 380 and you see that it's very low distortion driver. A compression drivers has slightly better Dynamics, but the Beyma AMT is much better than small ribbons and domes.

It's hard to say what you will like the best, I was thinking about the same thing myself when I built mine.

Sugestion:
Build two prototype boxes, one for a Beyma and one for the CD. Buy the Beyma from a norwegian webshop, and you can return it within two weeks if you find the CD/horn better. If everything is ready when you order that should be enough time to find out.
 
I have been using compression drivers exclusively for years and am more than happy with them.

I will be able to comment on the TPL150 and the NeoPro5i in comparison later this year when I get some for the next projects.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I have never found the need for much vertical dispersion at typical home listening positions. In a studio nearfield monitor it may be more important.

I love the Neopro5i or TPL150 as part of any design but when it comes to high custom rooms nothing beats the TAD CDs for effortless dynamics (Clean response) and proper horizontal and vertical polar response curves.

Ribbons limited vertical response is easily heard. Just sit or stand at any point during playback of any content. Its night and day in terms of differences. Posting opinion is great and all but lets remember everyone has their own "accepted" levels of they concern different. I think the measurements and simply vertical listening tests say everything about the differences.

Its up to each individual on how they place subjective value on these differences ;) Sadly Audio is the worst hobby for subjective value placement ;)
 
Thats just wrong. A quality 12" like the AE is really good way beoynd the ideal XO point at 1200hz. The B&C 250, BMS 4550 and several other CD's will for home use work as low as 800hz.

I would recommend a compression driver for this purpose because it has a better polar response in a good waveguide and it's easier to make make the crossover "dissapear".

An alternative could be the TPL-150H. It's in a waveguide allready, with 102db effiency and works well down to 1200hz.

The TPL-150H are super good drivers which in my ears are more detailed than medium priced compression drivers, but they cost quite alot more aswell.
Just look at the measurement Beyma provides of the TPL 150H vs their own CD's like the 380 and you see that it's very low distortion driver. A compression drivers has slightly better Dynamics, but the Beyma AMT is much better than small ribbons and domes.

It's hard to say what you will like the best, I was thinking about the same thing myself when I built mine.

Sugestion:
Build two prototype boxes, one for a Beyma and one for the CD. Buy the Beyma from a norwegian webshop, and you can return it within two weeks if you find the CD/horn better. If everything is ready when you order that should be enough time to find out.

Well, I can say that even though my AE TD-12Ms sound good past 1KHz. I can also say its better to have a CD playing below 1Khz. All my blind tests show its a better XO in terms of perferred sound (there is a reason Geddes designs are XOed lower then 1KHz!!!).

I would go with larger CDs that play lower before running larger woofers higher up. Again, people placing $$$ before SQ can not make this choice and they end up convincing themselves its all okay.

People should definitely build all choices and compare in properly controlled listening tests (Hard to actually do but worth it).

Im not saying the 2-way 12-inch pro/CD horn design isnt good Im just saying there can be better design choices. They just cost more....it starts being a subjective debate since all these designs are superior to anything people buy ;)
 
Hi there

Have a look at the thread entitled 'Is the AE TD15M the best midrange ever'. There is a link in that thread that points to another thread of someone who used a Beyma TPL-150 and a pair of AE TD12M to build a pair of studio monitors for a pro studio. He was very satisfied with the results, calling them some of the best speakers ever, as well as recieving a lot of praise from visiting recording engineers. Well worth a read.

Enjoy,
Deon
 
Hi there

Have a look at the thread entitled 'Is the AE TD15M the best midrange ever'. There is a link in that thread that points to another thread of someone who used a Beyma TPL-150 and a pair of AE TD12M to build a pair of studio monitors for a pro studio. He was very satisfied with the results, calling them some of the best speakers ever, as well as recieving a lot of praise from visiting recording engineers. Well worth a read.

Enjoy,
Deon

Wayne Parnham (sp?) of Pi speakers uses the TD12M upgrade choice for his Pi3. Someone can just ask him if that Pi3 is the best speaker he has heard with the TD12M/DE250 combo.

I have used TD series drivers for years. I also own B&C, JBL and other brands. None of them touch the TD series in terms of overall performance and measurements. I would never run my JBL 2226s above 600Hz actually but the TD15 series can handle it.
 
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Totally agree.

The 12" with XO of 1200hz to a 1" CD driver is a cheap and size effective solution. Not the ultimate solution.

My point was that the guy saying a 12" crossed to 1" CD doesn't work, is wrong. It does work.

Definitely agree!!

It works so well that the Econowaveguide threads on Parts express and audiokarma or AVS are full of great builds.

The 2-way design works so well that a SEOS waveguide has been designed and will be offered as kits with Eminence 12" woofers or AEspeaker drivers.

There are so many threads on so many forums with so many successful 2-way high end waveguide designs that its a no brainer to know it works ;)

Heck, we didnt even have to point out that Geddes designs are 2-way designs with large woofers so that is another proven design.
 
Wayne Parnham (sp?) of Pi speakers uses the TD12M upgrade choice for his Pi3.
Actually he uses the AE TD12S for the Three PI upgrade. It goes lower than the TD12M.
 

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