Hello all,
I am newly registered on DiyAudio, but I have spent many an hour reading and searching. Thanks to all the experienced individuals here that make life easier.
Now to my question. I am looking to build a set of speakers for my current system. In the past I have built tube guitar amps, a tube DAC, a small solid state amp and a set of Andromeda DIY speakers. I used the Andromeda speakers with my Macintosh MC602 and they sounded great. I have since sold my MC602 and gave my brother the Andromeda speakers to use.
My current system uses a pair of custom made Tube driven monoblocks that have a 805 driver tube and a 300B with 2X 12au7's each, they are estimated at about 40-60 watts based on the tube compliment. I have an Audio Note pre-amp and analog and digital front ends. I am currently using a smallish set of B&W 603's and they sound ok. This is where I want to start.
I want to design a solid 3-way speaker system that has a 10 - 13 inch sub / woofer?? and a 7 - 8 inch mid driver and a tweeter. This is not set in stone as I am unsure of how to optimize the speaker selection. I want to ensure that I have a sensitive enough speaker for the tube mono's. I am currently researching Xover designs and feel I understand the concepts fairly well. I am willing to put as much effort as needed to get the Xover's right on. I am also planning on a speaker cabinet that is something like 50" H X 12" W X 26" L, so it will be tall, thin and deep. I am also planning on making the sides curved inwards towards the back using a jig I made.
What I have:
I have excellent cabinet making and furniture making skills as well as all the woodworking machinery needed so I am set in that respect. I also have plenty of electronics parts, scopes, meters and tools, plus some electronics DIY experience.
What I need:
Pointed in the right direction to build some knowledge on Speaker selection, sensitivity and Xover design tips. I have read plenty on the subject, just need to build on that.
What I want to end up with:
A great sounding speaker that works well with the tube mono's I have. I will take care of the aesthetics of the cabinets.
Thanks for reading a long winded post, I just wanted to make sure I framed everything correctly.
Pat
I am newly registered on DiyAudio, but I have spent many an hour reading and searching. Thanks to all the experienced individuals here that make life easier.
Now to my question. I am looking to build a set of speakers for my current system. In the past I have built tube guitar amps, a tube DAC, a small solid state amp and a set of Andromeda DIY speakers. I used the Andromeda speakers with my Macintosh MC602 and they sounded great. I have since sold my MC602 and gave my brother the Andromeda speakers to use.
My current system uses a pair of custom made Tube driven monoblocks that have a 805 driver tube and a 300B with 2X 12au7's each, they are estimated at about 40-60 watts based on the tube compliment. I have an Audio Note pre-amp and analog and digital front ends. I am currently using a smallish set of B&W 603's and they sound ok. This is where I want to start.
I want to design a solid 3-way speaker system that has a 10 - 13 inch sub / woofer?? and a 7 - 8 inch mid driver and a tweeter. This is not set in stone as I am unsure of how to optimize the speaker selection. I want to ensure that I have a sensitive enough speaker for the tube mono's. I am currently researching Xover designs and feel I understand the concepts fairly well. I am willing to put as much effort as needed to get the Xover's right on. I am also planning on a speaker cabinet that is something like 50" H X 12" W X 26" L, so it will be tall, thin and deep. I am also planning on making the sides curved inwards towards the back using a jig I made.
What I have:
I have excellent cabinet making and furniture making skills as well as all the woodworking machinery needed so I am set in that respect. I also have plenty of electronics parts, scopes, meters and tools, plus some electronics DIY experience.
What I need:
Pointed in the right direction to build some knowledge on Speaker selection, sensitivity and Xover design tips. I have read plenty on the subject, just need to build on that.
What I want to end up with:
A great sounding speaker that works well with the tube mono's I have. I will take care of the aesthetics of the cabinets.
Thanks for reading a long winded post, I just wanted to make sure I framed everything correctly.
Pat
You might be better off posting this in the main loudspeakers section, as this part of the forum is dedicated to full / wide range drivers.
Remember that tall & thin will not automatically perform as expected if you design as a BR.
As for the rest -depends on what you want. 'Great sounding' isn't much to go on, given that everyone has different ideas about what such a thing is, and what is divine to one may be the antichrist to someone else. You're not giving us any idea of budget either. I suggest you take a look at Zaph's & Troel Gravesen's sites for inspiration WRT 3 way designs, driver choices etc. Troel's DTQWT (actually a horn) might be of interest: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008_DTQWT.htm
FWIW, one piece of general advice I almost always give: go for efficiency. The higher the better (providing you're not sacrificing too much elsewhere in order to achieve it, which should not be the case if you select & use quality drive units).
Remember that tall & thin will not automatically perform as expected if you design as a BR.
As for the rest -depends on what you want. 'Great sounding' isn't much to go on, given that everyone has different ideas about what such a thing is, and what is divine to one may be the antichrist to someone else. You're not giving us any idea of budget either. I suggest you take a look at Zaph's & Troel Gravesen's sites for inspiration WRT 3 way designs, driver choices etc. Troel's DTQWT (actually a horn) might be of interest: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008_DTQWT.htm
FWIW, one piece of general advice I almost always give: go for efficiency. The higher the better (providing you're not sacrificing too much elsewhere in order to achieve it, which should not be the case if you select & use quality drive units).
A big, high efficiency, 3 way system is tricky to design without measuring equipment. OK for the enclosure etc. but when it comes to the crossover adjustment...
Here is a proposal, for one channel:
BASS: up to 300Hz: 2x15"woofers Ciare PW388 or 15.64 (it's the same speaker, just two different references); they have a low resonnant frequency and will require 200Liters of net volume each=400L net per channel, with bass reflex enclosure, vent: 7" diameter, 7" length '1 vent for each woofer or two for a common enclosure); they have a low moving mass of 75g and extremely low mechanical resistance=high spl and good resolution - for a 15" at least - even at low volume)
MID: 300Hz to 3000Hz; 2x Audax HM210Z10 ; only one place in the world where they are still available since they're out of production, unfortunately: http://www.audax-speaker.de/?lang=en ; excellent mid-way speaker, low moving mass despite high tech coating to avoid resonances, very smooth but high resolution. Similar mids are available under other brands.
TREBBLE: 3000Hz to above 20,000Hz: 1 x Beyma TPL150: Air motion tweeter, high resolution, high spl, smooth and neutral, good resolution also at low spl.
Crossover: I've spent two years to fine tune the crossover based on listening tests and all types of music, using many possibilities and changing often the setting from complex to simpler, and back to complex designs.
I finally prefered the simple approach (!!) despite the size of the system and the number of speakers:
BASS (polarity reversed): 12dB slope: 5mH serial +200uF parallel
MID: 6+6dB slope: 50uF serial +1,4mH serial
TREBBLE (3 inches deeper than MIDs):6dB slope: 8,2uF serial;
I managed to get an excellent tonal balance at the listening place at 5meters (17 feet) without any resistor: full spl available !
Overall sensitivity is betwen 100 and 105dB.
Works fine with high power mosfet amp, chipamp LM3886, tube amps (including PP EL34, SE 805), but I have not tried with low power SE triode amps (my SE805 deliver 40W/ch). Could be difficult for SE300B or 845 to drive such large speakers without impedance "linearization".
Another challenge was to get 4 such woofers working in my listening room. You should expect some boomy resonances depending on room proportions and if no acoustic treatment. I coped with this by just adding a couple of sofas to break stationary bass-waves. The bass level can be adjusted my moving the listening sofa closer back to the wall (closer= louder), but 3 to 4 feet away is best.
I use sigle enclosures placed at 1foot1/2 above ground to get the most articulate bass.
Good luck!
Here is a proposal, for one channel:
BASS: up to 300Hz: 2x15"woofers Ciare PW388 or 15.64 (it's the same speaker, just two different references); they have a low resonnant frequency and will require 200Liters of net volume each=400L net per channel, with bass reflex enclosure, vent: 7" diameter, 7" length '1 vent for each woofer or two for a common enclosure); they have a low moving mass of 75g and extremely low mechanical resistance=high spl and good resolution - for a 15" at least - even at low volume)
MID: 300Hz to 3000Hz; 2x Audax HM210Z10 ; only one place in the world where they are still available since they're out of production, unfortunately: http://www.audax-speaker.de/?lang=en ; excellent mid-way speaker, low moving mass despite high tech coating to avoid resonances, very smooth but high resolution. Similar mids are available under other brands.
TREBBLE: 3000Hz to above 20,000Hz: 1 x Beyma TPL150: Air motion tweeter, high resolution, high spl, smooth and neutral, good resolution also at low spl.
Crossover: I've spent two years to fine tune the crossover based on listening tests and all types of music, using many possibilities and changing often the setting from complex to simpler, and back to complex designs.
I finally prefered the simple approach (!!) despite the size of the system and the number of speakers:
BASS (polarity reversed): 12dB slope: 5mH serial +200uF parallel
MID: 6+6dB slope: 50uF serial +1,4mH serial
TREBBLE (3 inches deeper than MIDs):6dB slope: 8,2uF serial;
I managed to get an excellent tonal balance at the listening place at 5meters (17 feet) without any resistor: full spl available !
Overall sensitivity is betwen 100 and 105dB.
Works fine with high power mosfet amp, chipamp LM3886, tube amps (including PP EL34, SE 805), but I have not tried with low power SE triode amps (my SE805 deliver 40W/ch). Could be difficult for SE300B or 845 to drive such large speakers without impedance "linearization".
Another challenge was to get 4 such woofers working in my listening room. You should expect some boomy resonances depending on room proportions and if no acoustic treatment. I coped with this by just adding a couple of sofas to break stationary bass-waves. The bass level can be adjusted my moving the listening sofa closer back to the wall (closer= louder), but 3 to 4 feet away is best.
I use sigle enclosures placed at 1foot1/2 above ground to get the most articulate bass.
Good luck!
NorCalAudio said:
You mean an 805SE amp with a 300B driver and 12AU7 front end?
SE amps tend not to like xrossovers, but that would be a nice amp for driving a "midrange" from ~100 Hz to 10k.
dave
PS: i've moved this thread to Loudspeakers, the Full-range forum is not a place to be talking too much about XOs.
dave
elac310 said:
Thanks for the response. After looking at all the DIY speakers designs that Google found, plus all the ones referenced on this forum I have rethought the design somewhat. I am considering a 2 way design.
I am pouring over speaker specs at the moment trying to determine what I should be looking for spec wise to insure I am designing a loudspeaker that is sensitive enough and has enough range with respect towards reproducing deep bass and mellow highs. I know, it sounds like I want everything....
I listen to pretty much every style of music, but I don't need huge amounts of bass. I just don't want a thin sounding experience.
Specwise what are the most important aspects of a speaker (driver, tweeter, woofer) that one should pay attention to? I am currently looking at sensitivity, power handling in Watts, freq response and construction. I would like to develop a sense of classification according to what works best for a SET amp, or a high current solid state.
As for the crossovers. I know that I will not get it right for a while. I plan on making the crossover easy to modify and change by keeping it mounted outside the inner enclosure using a built in enclosure that I can access from the rear of the speaker where the speaker wiring will connect to the speaker cables. I am actually looking forward to this as I know hands on experience will teach me more about crossover designs than reading. Also what is the common consensus regarding the use of L-Pads to control mids and highs?
In summary right now I am trying to hammer out and decide on driver selection. From there I plan on putting a few cabinet design together based on the drivers and then using software I will try my hand at crossovers. I will also probably use software to get a few cabinet dimensions.
Thanks to everyone for reading and commenting on my rudimentary questions. Also thanks "planet10" for moving this to the proper forum.
...Looking forward to more comments and learning.
Pat
Hi Pat,NorCalAudio said:
I am thinking a lot for building high spl spaekers.
Look on the fostex site
fostex enclosures
A quick idea of Helmuth for 98dB 1W/mtr 33Hz - 40khz (high end)
Use two of beyma 12br70 parallel.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
beyma
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And with 18db/oct from 1khz this one neopro5i
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This shout make high qaulity high spl possible 2 way.
3 way use this mid beyma
and this ribbon neocd2.0mb
I thought of a better choice for the 12br70. The sph275c will perform better within midrange due carbon cone.
http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.php?id=75&L=0&act=8&act_sub=25&artid=3735&spr=DE&typ=u
Two parallel should make about 95dB 1 W/mtr with the neocd2 84liter box!!Cost about 2X130 euro + 103 euro= 363 drivers.
http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.php?id=75&L=0&act=8&act_sub=25&artid=3735&spr=DE&typ=u
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Two parallel should make about 95dB 1 W/mtr with the neocd2 84liter box!!Cost about 2X130 euro + 103 euro= 363 drivers.
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Hi
And use a passive radiator of seas or peerles and not a pipe.
seas
peerless
Here a new plot a box with 2x sph275 see max SPL! -3db 43Hz, -8db 35Hz
And use a passive radiator of seas or peerles and not a pipe.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
seas
peerless
Here a new plot a box with 2x sph275 see max SPL! -3db 43Hz, -8db 35Hz
Attachments
And here another plot of a vented bandpass with beyma 12br70.
Why bandpas the 12br70 is a bargain and has very low THD and high SPL. The band pass will help to reduce partial vibration of the cone to further reduce THD, and will have better impulse behaviour than BR.
The layout 12br70 and (605nd Not) 6mi90 with the neocd2 it is possible to make a low distorsion 96-97dB 1Wmtr 8Ohm 3 way loudspeaker.
6mi90
Lr= rohrlange legth pipe centimeter
Dr=rorhdurchmesser pipe diameter. centimeter
1= volume 1 108 liter
2= volume 2 54 liter
-3dB 38Hz-100Hz
regards helmuth
Why bandpas the 12br70 is a bargain and has very low THD and high SPL. The band pass will help to reduce partial vibration of the cone to further reduce THD, and will have better impulse behaviour than BR.
The layout 12br70 and (605nd Not) 6mi90 with the neocd2 it is possible to make a low distorsion 96-97dB 1Wmtr 8Ohm 3 way loudspeaker.
6mi90
Lr= rohrlange legth pipe centimeter
Dr=rorhdurchmesser pipe diameter. centimeter
1= volume 1 108 liter
2= volume 2 54 liter
-3dB 38Hz-100Hz
regards helmuth
Attachments
A little correction the 605nd wont do because this one will only perform down to 180Hz.
Use the beyma 6mi90 also high-quality cone mid driver.
here a plot of a br box for the 6mi90 down to 100Hz.
To fit a bandpass 12br70 that also XO at 100Hz.
Correction to the plot vent a 6.8cm diameter and a leght of 4,5cm will also do.
Use the beyma 6mi90 also high-quality cone mid driver.
here a plot of a br box for the 6mi90 down to 100Hz.
To fit a bandpass 12br70 that also XO at 100Hz.
Correction to the plot vent a 6.8cm diameter and a leght of 4,5cm will also do.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Attachments
A other alternative for high spl hifi midrange cone. Do not know about THD figures of this one.
ff225
A very low distortion full range (midrange) visaton b200. A very nice product.
b200
or omnes l8. Per forms very good in a dipole due its TS parameters.
l8
ff225
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A very low distortion full range (midrange) visaton b200. A very nice product.
b200
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
or omnes l8. Per forms very good in a dipole due its TS parameters.
l8
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To Norcalaudio (Pat)
You said you have good woodworking skills; I envy you for that. Some years ago, I fell in love with the large Tannoy two-way Coaxials (15 inch woofer with compression driver in the middle). I would have built a Canterbury or Westminster replica (http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?section=Residential&sub=1)
or some older similar design for which plans and cross-over schematics are available here and there on the net. It is easy to then add a super-tweeter on the top, if necessary. A friend of mine had difficulties to make them work with low power triode amps, but should be nice with your big 805 triode-based amp.
Someone else suggested a design based on Fostex speakers; that's an excellent idea. The horn-based speakers are fascinating; a(nother) friend of mine built the original Jericho horn (conceived by a German DiY-periodical called "Klang und Ton"), based on the Fostex FE208S. it and it was very impressive, except that to my taste the fostex had a slight "nosal" sound. The same periodical has recently conceived another version, which uses now a Ciare full range; see http://oaudio.de/Lautsprecher-Bausaetze/HobbyHifi/Jericho-Horn-08::524.html
Should be another nice exercise for a skilled woodworker!
You said you have good woodworking skills; I envy you for that. Some years ago, I fell in love with the large Tannoy two-way Coaxials (15 inch woofer with compression driver in the middle). I would have built a Canterbury or Westminster replica (http://www.tannoy-speakers.com/s.php?section=Residential&sub=1)
or some older similar design for which plans and cross-over schematics are available here and there on the net. It is easy to then add a super-tweeter on the top, if necessary. A friend of mine had difficulties to make them work with low power triode amps, but should be nice with your big 805 triode-based amp.
Someone else suggested a design based on Fostex speakers; that's an excellent idea. The horn-based speakers are fascinating; a(nother) friend of mine built the original Jericho horn (conceived by a German DiY-periodical called "Klang und Ton"), based on the Fostex FE208S. it and it was very impressive, except that to my taste the fostex had a slight "nosal" sound. The same periodical has recently conceived another version, which uses now a Ciare full range; see http://oaudio.de/Lautsprecher-Bausaetze/HobbyHifi/Jericho-Horn-08::524.html
Should be another nice exercise for a skilled woodworker!
Helmuth, Elac310 and everyone else,
Thanks for all the exceptional insight and ideas. I am sorting through drivers while comparing specs and getting a better idea on how to ensure I develop a sensitive speaker design that will function well with a pair of SET monoblocks.
Elac310, the cabinet will resemble the Sonus Faber Cremona in shape, but I want mine to be swept back a bit. Overall the outside of the cabinets will be furniture grade and I am thinking of doing a black piano finish with a maple baffle and maple base. I am going to post a few designs shortly once I am fairly confident of my driver choices and see how many holes I can get poked through my assumptions. I am looking forward to that part, it will let me know how far off I am on the aspects that are important.
Thanks again for all your help, everyone.
Pat
Thanks for all the exceptional insight and ideas. I am sorting through drivers while comparing specs and getting a better idea on how to ensure I develop a sensitive speaker design that will function well with a pair of SET monoblocks.
Elac310, the cabinet will resemble the Sonus Faber Cremona in shape, but I want mine to be swept back a bit. Overall the outside of the cabinets will be furniture grade and I am thinking of doing a black piano finish with a maple baffle and maple base. I am going to post a few designs shortly once I am fairly confident of my driver choices and see how many holes I can get poked through my assumptions. I am looking forward to that part, it will let me know how far off I am on the aspects that are important.
Thanks again for all your help, everyone.
Pat
look for drivers with a spl of 93-94dB 1W/mtr (often 12") parallel those end you will end up with 96dB. A ribbon or hornloaded tweeter will have a spl 95-110dB 1W/mtr. Peerles has a dome tweeter with horn 95dB 1mtr.
But I would go for a nice ribbon of fountec or hiviresearch very low distorsion.
Or eminence atp80 this low cost hf-driver was tested in klang und ton(the atp 150) and has a remarkable low thd beter of many high end dome tweeters and that for 30 euro!
Hi,
So you built a pair of these ?
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Andromeda.html
And you want to build a very similar 3 way ?
Tony G. has updated his reference design :
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Humble_Statement.html
The jist of your outline with twin bass drivers is the Watt/Puppy :
http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/david/david.htm
The drivers are outdated but the principles apply, especially
the method of implementing the mid BSC for high sensitivity.
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/DesigningXO.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
http://htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/John1.html
Lots of useful information in the above links.
/sreten.
So you built a pair of these ?
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Andromeda.html
And you want to build a very similar 3 way ?
Tony G. has updated his reference design :
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Humble_Statement.html
The jist of your outline with twin bass drivers is the Watt/Puppy :
http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/david/david.htm
The drivers are outdated but the principles apply, especially
the method of implementing the mid BSC for high sensitivity.
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/DesigningXO.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
http://htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/John1.html
Lots of useful information in the above links.
/sreten.
The horn I mentioned.
THD under 0,3% at 85 dB 1W/mtr above 2kHz.
The same driver with a shorter horn.
THD under 0,3% at 85 dB 1W/mtr above 2kHz.
The same driver with a shorter horn.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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That is right it seems to be a 100dB dome tweeter. Because it was measured on 0,5mtr distance. (I cound't believe a dome with that spl
and looked )average 94,5dB 1W/mtr so watch out.
This one dt28 is also 94 dB 1W/mtr and 25 euro.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dt28
low distortion high spl looks good to IMO.
above 4kHz thd <1% and that at 107dB 1W!! at 90dB it will be even better.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Highend horn of visaton 100dB 1W tl16h
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I believe your are looking for special stuff.
here a super horn tweeter up to 100kHz.
T500mkII
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Attachments
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