absolute phase ... mrFB vrs SE :)

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mrfeedback said:
Steve,

Well, yeah this is what we are on about.
Do you find any subjective differing directional results ?.
If you do, then there must be a physical reason, yeah ?.

Well, I guess since my brain is a physical entity and all of my subjective perceptions are due to electrochemical processess going on in my brain, there is ultimately a "physical" reason. But that's not what I'm referring to when I say "physical."

I meant changing polarity of input and output connections together in order conserve throughput polarity, but invert wire and transformer core polarity.
I do use my DPDT transformer arrangement so that I can easily select AP at my speakers, but that was not my question.
BTW - are you saying that you cannot hear AP ?.

I don't know one way or the other whether absolute phase is audible. I was simply pointing out that if you were changing absolute polarity, then you'd be adding another variable other than any directionality of the conductor.

These differences were not subtle.
Go and read the thread that Frank refers to above and you will be clearer on what we mean.

I know what you mean.

Double blind testing is typically worth less than a pinch of you know what, because of unfamiliarity with system variables - A/B testing blind or not is perfectly valid on a very familiar home system.

Yet people have done blind A/B testing in their own homes, with their own very familiar systems over periods of weeks and even months. And even during the listening sessions, they claim the differences are still not subtle. Yet when you look at the results, they're no better than if they had simply guessed randomly.

Just because you subjectively perceive a difference that you consider to be "not subtle" doesn't prove that the perceived difference has any reality beyond your own mind.

Even those taking the "sugar pill" in blind trials of medications report "not subtle" improvements in their condition. And every quack and charlatan can produce individuals who give wholly sincere testimonials.

I think you rather grossly underestimate the power of mind.

Check the listings of your local PBS station tonight and see if they're airing Scientific American Frontiers. Tonight's episode is about just what we're talking about here.

I am perfectly concious of what my ears communicate, and I am perfectly familiar with interpreting this information under all sorts of conditions.
How exactly can your mind be sub-concious ?.

Well, we'd all like to beleive we are perfectly conscious of such things. But you don't really KNOW unless you take measures to filter out the effects of the subconcious mind as well as external influences.

As to HOW our mind comes to operate at a subconscious level isn't so easily explained. However the existence of the subconscious mind and its influences over our conscious mind have been well established for quite a long time.

Fine fair enough point.
In my younger years I read the brocures, and believed the spiels to be true.
When the salesman plugged in say, 'Monster cables', and said "Hear that better bass ?" etc, upon that power of suggestion, I did.
On subsequent learning, and far greater experience, I now do not pay the merest heed to such suggestion.

But the suggestion doesn't have to come from a brochure or a salesman telling you there's some difference or other. The suggestion can come from your subconscious mind simply anticipating the possibility of some difference.

In my formative years, I did indeed perform experiments, and automatically considered them to be beneficial.
In later experimenting, I have learned that one can make very fine audible differences, but these are not always beneficial fine differences, especially with long term listening.

Well PREFERENCE is a whole other matter and has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

I thought that you were asserting that the claims of C37 and Tubolator cannot be true, or indeed possible ?.

I don't recall saying anything about C37 or Tubolator. When was this?

I do not swallow weird claims either, but I do studty the claims, reviews and information given, in order to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Yet apparently you don't like it when others don't unquestioningly swallow your claims.

Within my experience, I fully expect that C37 and Tubolator do affect/effect system sound, however based on my experience, I am not sure that the effect is particularly significant, nor entirely likeable - this requires personal experience of these products, and that I do not have, and my soloution is quite different.

Again, I don't recall saying anything about C37 or Tubolator.

se
 
mrfeedback said:
So just what are the other causes of subjective perceptions ?

Our mind.

For example:

<center>
<img src="http://www.q-audio.com/images/illusion.jpg">
</center>

The objective reality is that C is the opposite end of a straight line from point A. However our subjective perception, i.e. what our mind tells us, is that B is the opposite end.

Again, I think you rather grossly underestimate the power of mind. I know our egos don't always care for certain realities, but the rational, thinking person strives to not let ego dominate and become dogmatic.

se
 
I Find Polarity Is Perfectly Audible.

I don't know one way or the other whether absolute phase is audible.

Steve, please tell me that you are kiding me here.
On my system, I can even hear if a microphone is recorded in wrong polarity wrt the rest of the music.
On compilation CD's, I find just about every second track is recorded inverted, and so does my GF.
Bernard made a comment that it took him 20 minutes of Normal/Inverted polarity testing to understand the difference, and once you understand, then you know.

Eric.
 
Listening Modes...

Steve, that illusion does not fool me for a millisecond.
The angle of B is different to A or C.
A and C have the same angle wrt to the rectangle - that is the clue, and not at all difficult to see at first glance.
Sorry, flawed example.

The key to A/B sonics testing is not to listen for HF, MF or LF changes, but to listen for patterns and correlations that have changed (or not).
When you understand this mode of listening, accurate A/B testing becomes a natural skill.

Eric.
 
Re: I Find Polarity Is Perfectly Audible.

mrfeedback said:
Steve, please tell me that you are kiding me here.

I'm not kidding at all. I don't know whether absolute polarity is audible or not. And by that all I'm saying is that I don't know whether what I subjectively perceive with respect to absolute polarity is in fact due to changes in absolute polarity. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. I don't really care one way or the other because my ego isn't threatened in either case.

se
 
Re: Listening Modes...

mrfeedback said:
Steve, that illusion does not fool me for a millisecond.
The angle of B is different to A or C.
A and C have the same angle wrt to the rectangle - that is the clue, and not at all difficult to see at first glance.

Uh, A, B and C all have the EXACT same angles with respect to the sides of the rectangle. If you see otherwise, then either you're being fooled or it's time to either have your eyes checked or your monitor repaired or replaced.

The key to A/B sonics testing is not to listen for HF, MF or LF changes, but to listen for patterns and correlations that have changed (or not).
When you understand this mode of listening, accurate A/B testing becomes a natural skill.

Then you should have no trouble at all under blind conditions. I should hook you up with Tom Noisaine. He's been looking for someone with your powers for years. Unfortunately, those who have made similar claims to yours haven't been able to demonstrate them under blind conditions.

You could be the first. You could be famous. You could be rich. You could put an end to all this debate.

se
 
I Still Find Polarity Is Perfectly Audible, Likely You Can Too.

Steve Eddy said:


I'm not kidding at all. I don't know whether absolute polarity is audible or not. And by that all I'm saying is that I don't know whether what I subjectively perceive with respect to absolute polarity is in fact due to changes in absolute polarity. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. I don't really care one way or the other because my ego isn't threatened in either case.

se
Steve,
one way to find out and understand is to listen to a spoken word recording, in normal and inverted modes.
Another method is to go out into a free space area (park) and get a person to speak directly toward you, and then get them to turn 180* and repeat the same words.
You should find two distinctly differing sounds.

Next, try say, a kick drum recording, inverted and not inverted, and you should hear two distinctly differing sounds.
Once you have a handle on these differing characteristics, you ought to be able to hear them in most recordings.
Beware, multi-miced recordings can be confusing due to mic spill/stray pickup, so stay with simpler recordings at first, or better still outdoor natural sound recordings.
Once you are blessed with this new skill, you won't look back.

Eric. / - never threatened by ego.
 
Re: Re: Listening Modes...

Steve Eddy said:


Uh, A, B and C all have the EXACT same angles with respect to the sides of the rectangle. If you see otherwise, then either you're being fooled or it's time to either have your eyes checked or your monitor repaired or replaced.


Yeah, ok I should have explained that better.
In the line A-C, A and C are in line with the line A-C.
In the line A-B, A and B are not aligned with the line A-B.
If one has a straight eye, this is clearly seen.

Then you should have no trouble at all under blind conditions. I should hook you up with Tom Noisaine. He's been looking for someone with your powers for years. Unfortunately, those who have made similar claims to yours haven't been able to demonstrate them under blind conditions.

Well, to relate an example years ago, on a very finely detailed system that I had, with practice, my flatmate, my GF and I were all able to clearly, accurately and repeatably discern whichever of 5 different interconnect pairs that were in usage.
The strong provisos to this are that the system must be very clear, clean, detailed and phase flat, and each of the cables needs to be listened to individually for long enough in order that you can characterise the different sounds, and then it is a relatively simple matter to just recognise these individual sounds.

As an example, when you have heard a particular human voice, you automatically store a mental 'voice-print', and thereafter you are able to distingish and instantly recognise that voice in a noisey crowd, or even on a telephone.
Accurate A/B testing is no more difficult than this, but the 'voice-print' initial learning stage is required.

You could be the first. You could be famous. You could be rich. You could put an end to all this debate.

Peter, Frank and plenty others around here understand these points already, I expect, and therefore make no issue with these points when given previously.
Understanding audio reproduction can be a long learning experience, but can be shortened by heeding advice like that above.

Eric / - Still Learning Too.
 
Re: I Still Find Polarity Is Perfectly Audible, Likely You Can Too.

mrfeedback said:

Steve,
one way to find out and understand is to listen to a spoken word recording, in normal and inverted modes.
Another method is to go out into a free space area (park) and get a person to speak directly toward you, and then get them to turn 180* and repeat the same words.
You should find two distinctly differing sounds.

Why do you keep going on about this? I've never said that I don't perceive any differences with regard to absolute polarity nor have I claimed that it's inaudible.

What's your point?

se
 
So That You May Better Understand What You Have Been Hearing All This Time.....

I'm not kidding at all. I don't know whether absolute polarity is audible or not.

Steve,
The point is that with the information I just gave, you may use this knowledge to consistently enhance your listening pleasure.
If you are listening in random polarity, you are not hearing the music as the musicians intended, well not all the time.

Eric.
 
Re: Re: Re: Listening Modes...

mrfeedback said:
Yeah, ok I should have explained that better.
In the line A-C, A and C are in line with the line A-C.
In the line A-B, A and B are not aligned with the line A-B.
If one has a straight eye, this is clearly seen.

Er, a "straight eye"? This has nothing to do with the eye. It has to do with the brain. I think you're just bullshitting at this point.

Well, to relate an example years ago, on a very finely detailed system that I had, with practice, my flatmate, my GF and I were all able to clearly, accurately and repeatably discern whichever of 5 different interconnect pairs that were in usage.

You can relate examples from now 'til Doomsday. Amusing anecdotes don't constitute proof.

The strong provisos to this are that the system must be very clear, clean, detailed and phase flat, and each of the cables needs to be listened to individually for long enough in order that you can characterise the different sounds, and then it is a relatively simple matter to just recognise these individual sounds.

And again, this situation has been met in a number of tests with individuals who make similar claims to yours, but once they're deprived of knowing which cable they're listening to (after having spent weeks listening to them under sighted conditions) suddenly their ability to accurately discern one from another evaporates.

And even while listening under blind conditions, the participants still claim to hear the differences they did under sighted conditions. Yet when you look at the actual results, they were unable to correctly identify one from the other beyond what would be expected from random chance.

So again, you should get in touch with Tom Noisaine. If you can demonstrate your abilities under blind conditions, you'll be famous.

As an example, when you have heard a particular human voice, you automatically store a mental 'voice-print', and thereafter you are able to distingish and instantly recognise that voice in a noisey crowd, or even on a telephone.
Accurate A/B testing is no more difficult than this, but the 'voice-print' initial learning stage is required.

And yet again, this criteria of learning has been met numerous times before.

Peter, Frank and plenty others around here understand these points already, I expect, and therefore make no issue with these points when given previously.
Understanding audio reproduction can be a long learning experience, but can be shortened by heeding advice like that above.

It's not an understanding of audio reproduction that you lack. It's an understanding of some rather basic, well-established psychological phenomena that you need to come up to speed with. That and overcoming your own ego.

se
 
Re: So That You May Better Understand What You Have Been Hearing All This Time.....

mrfeedback said:
Steve,
The point is that with the information I just gave, you may use this knowledge to consistently enhance your listening pleasure.

Except that you're not telling me anything I don't already know.

If you are listening in random polarity, you are not hearing the music as the musicians intended, well not all the time.

Personally, I could care less about anyone else's intent. I don't listen to music to gratify anyone other than myself. If listening to music in some fashion other than what might have been intended brings be greater pleasure in the end, so be it. And if any musician's feelings get hurt, well, too bad.

se
 
Steve, Just Grow Up, And Learn to Socialise Better.

Steve,
You are unable to discern something so elementary as correct AP, so there really is no point at all in trying to help you, especially in light of your consistent argueing against any valid points brought to your attention.
If you are happy with bad sound, I only feel pity for you.
If you do not want to have better sound, then more fool you, in my view.

Eric / - No wonder the likes of Fred and Jocko do not come back.
 
Re: Steve, Just Grow Up, And Learn to Socialise Better.

mrfeedback said:
Steve,
You are unable to discern something so elementary as correct AP, so there really is no point at all in trying to help you, especially in light of your consistent argueing against any valid points brought to your attention.

Excuse me? When did I say I was unable to discern absolute polarity? Quote me.

You previously claimed I had said something regarding C37 and Tubolator and that was a load of crap too.

Methinks you're starting going off the deep end here.

If you are happy with bad sound, I only feel pity for you.
If you do not want to have better sound, then more fool you, in my view.

"Better sound" is a subjective judgement. That which is more objectively accurate does not always result in the "best sound" for every individual.

To assert that YOUR subjective preferneces are the One True subjective preferences and are somehow inherently superior to those of others who may not share those same preferences show that you've really got an ego problem you need to deal with.

se
 
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