Hi!
I won a pair of RTL2 on ebay for £5.50!
Decided to modify and upgrade them and need some help/advice please....
First step: Crossover, whats the best way to impove it?
Second step: Drivers. Ive been advised to go for Vifa M17WH-09-08 midbass and Morel MDT30s tweeters. Are there any alternatives which would work without altering the crossover?
Third step: Enclosure. I plan on lining every internal surface with self-adheisive Bitumen deadsheet. Im also keen to learn of any other materials I could use for damping. What about 'dimple foam' or 'acetate fibre'?
Finally im going to attatch a new front baffe over the existing one (click attatchment) and apply 'Birdseye maple' veneer....
Any advice, hints, or tips will be greatly appreciated!
I won a pair of RTL2 on ebay for £5.50!
Decided to modify and upgrade them and need some help/advice please....
First step: Crossover, whats the best way to impove it?
Second step: Drivers. Ive been advised to go for Vifa M17WH-09-08 midbass and Morel MDT30s tweeters. Are there any alternatives which would work without altering the crossover?
Third step: Enclosure. I plan on lining every internal surface with self-adheisive Bitumen deadsheet. Im also keen to learn of any other materials I could use for damping. What about 'dimple foam' or 'acetate fibre'?
Finally im going to attatch a new front baffe over the existing one (click attatchment) and apply 'Birdseye maple' veneer....
Any advice, hints, or tips will be greatly appreciated!
well done on your purchase, i thought i had a bargain paying £19.00 for a pair.great speakers as they are but i am interested
myself in upgrading the drive units in the future.i have been in touch with lockwood audio who can source mk 2 versions of the tweeters but can no longer supply the main drivers but can advise on an alternative make. birdseye finish sounds nice.sorry but can't offer much advice as i am new to this forum but good luck with your project, please let us know how you get on,engine.
myself in upgrading the drive units in the future.i have been in touch with lockwood audio who can source mk 2 versions of the tweeters but can no longer supply the main drivers but can advise on an alternative make. birdseye finish sounds nice.sorry but can't offer much advice as i am new to this forum but good luck with your project, please let us know how you get on,engine.
Hi and thanks for the reply.
I thought id share a recent mod with you as it is really cheap and hugely sucessfull.
I changed the internal wire, QED siler anniversary XT for the midbass driver and the old silver anniversary (the standard twisted version) for the tweeter (I chose not to use the XT on the tweeter as I did this previously on a pair ofALR/Jordan speakers and it made the treble far too 'bright' for my taste). I first removed to original wire and solder with a solder sucker making sure I removed all of it. Before I did this I marked with a pen on the crossover to ensure the new wires went on the correct terminals and the drivers were in the correct polarity. Then I resoldered the new wires with a good quality silver solder (this gives a better electrical connection than ordinary lead based solder).
While I had the drivers out I felt it would be a good experiment to re arrange the 'stuffing' inside the cabinet. It was just stuffed in to begin with so removed all of it and took each individual piece (about 4 per enclosure) and folded each of them in half and replaced them around the cabinet walls. This is tricky when doing the lower front portion of the box (youll see what I mean) but with care can be done. The result your looking for is to have all internal walls (exept that of the vent section) lined with the foam stuffing leaving free space at the rear of the main driver.
The result: More detail, better dynamics, imaging, clarity, and most notably, alot deeper bass. A really sucessfull mod. Well worth the effort.
I thought id share a recent mod with you as it is really cheap and hugely sucessfull.
I changed the internal wire, QED siler anniversary XT for the midbass driver and the old silver anniversary (the standard twisted version) for the tweeter (I chose not to use the XT on the tweeter as I did this previously on a pair ofALR/Jordan speakers and it made the treble far too 'bright' for my taste). I first removed to original wire and solder with a solder sucker making sure I removed all of it. Before I did this I marked with a pen on the crossover to ensure the new wires went on the correct terminals and the drivers were in the correct polarity. Then I resoldered the new wires with a good quality silver solder (this gives a better electrical connection than ordinary lead based solder).
While I had the drivers out I felt it would be a good experiment to re arrange the 'stuffing' inside the cabinet. It was just stuffed in to begin with so removed all of it and took each individual piece (about 4 per enclosure) and folded each of them in half and replaced them around the cabinet walls. This is tricky when doing the lower front portion of the box (youll see what I mean) but with care can be done. The result your looking for is to have all internal walls (exept that of the vent section) lined with the foam stuffing leaving free space at the rear of the main driver.
The result: More detail, better dynamics, imaging, clarity, and most notably, alot deeper bass. A really sucessfull mod. Well worth the effort.
While you have the bass drivers out of it can I suggest a mod that improved my missions but should be universal.
I used no more nails, but others have used putty. The baskets are no doubt pressed steel on these speakers (my memory says so). Damping or strengthening the steel basket reduced ringing from the baskets and cleans up the sound. Expect to hear improvements in the midrange to mid bass range of the sound.
The particular area of interest is the gap between the magnet and the steel frame. Fill this with putty or no more nails. This reduces ringing.
Others have gone further and added bracing to the legs of the basket. I cant see this doing anything other than good.
I found it to be the most cost effective upgrade on a pair of speakers.
Oh and yes on the rewire. I used three strands of mag wire, twisted together on a drill for my bass drivers, 2 strands on the tweeter. (18guage wire I think) rewiring IMHO is almost always an improvement.
Another cheap upgrade is a couple of slabs to stand them on.
I used no more nails, but others have used putty. The baskets are no doubt pressed steel on these speakers (my memory says so). Damping or strengthening the steel basket reduced ringing from the baskets and cleans up the sound. Expect to hear improvements in the midrange to mid bass range of the sound.
The particular area of interest is the gap between the magnet and the steel frame. Fill this with putty or no more nails. This reduces ringing.
Others have gone further and added bracing to the legs of the basket. I cant see this doing anything other than good.
I found it to be the most cost effective upgrade on a pair of speakers.
Oh and yes on the rewire. I used three strands of mag wire, twisted together on a drill for my bass drivers, 2 strands on the tweeter. (18guage wire I think) rewiring IMHO is almost always an improvement.
Another cheap upgrade is a couple of slabs to stand them on.
Sounds good, I'll give that a go. I read somewhere on the net a suggestion that covering the frame with Bitumen has a similar effect....
On the subject of cabinet stuffing. I intend to try out a product supplied by wilmslow audio. Its a composite of bitumen sheets bonded to acoustic foam on a self adheisive backing which you line the cabs with. This should improve things even further. Then I'm going to use varying amouts (in different locations) of lambswool stuffing (also supplied by Wilmslow) to 'tune' the sound to my taste. Will post results on this thread.
A note on the RTL2: The weakest links are undoubtedly the cabinet and the crossover. Folowing that its the tweeter, apparently the MOREL MDT30's brings a major improvement to this speaker. To improve the box im going to use 15mm dowel cut into lengths that run from front baffle directly behind the screw holes for the midbass, to the back panel. These will be srewed into the rear panel, then the midbass will be re-installed with slightly longer screws which penetrate the front baffle and go into the dowels. Again, will post results on this thead....
On the subject of cabinet stuffing. I intend to try out a product supplied by wilmslow audio. Its a composite of bitumen sheets bonded to acoustic foam on a self adheisive backing which you line the cabs with. This should improve things even further. Then I'm going to use varying amouts (in different locations) of lambswool stuffing (also supplied by Wilmslow) to 'tune' the sound to my taste. Will post results on this thread.
A note on the RTL2: The weakest links are undoubtedly the cabinet and the crossover. Folowing that its the tweeter, apparently the MOREL MDT30's brings a major improvement to this speaker. To improve the box im going to use 15mm dowel cut into lengths that run from front baffle directly behind the screw holes for the midbass, to the back panel. These will be srewed into the rear panel, then the midbass will be re-installed with slightly longer screws which penetrate the front baffle and go into the dowels. Again, will post results on this thead....
I got the Morel tweeters and they sound amazing!
I really like the sound, theres virtually no sibilance at all and they produce nice clean treble. Im really happy with the integration with the RTL2 midbass. The Morels seem to blend niceley.
Ive been advised that the Scanspeak 18W/8545-00 should work wel in the RTL cabinet. Ive seen a speaker design using this midbass with a D2905/9500 tweeter (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm) and the mesurements are good.
Im considering attempting to incorporate this design into the RTL2 cabs. I'll need to make a completely new front baffle for this and in doing so I can give myself a little more volume to the box. The RTL2 cab is 25.5 ltr's which is enough for this driver. I can get it up to 26 with the new front baffle.
For a cheap and easy upgraed just fit the Morel MDT30's and upgrade the wire. Also fitting the Deadsheet panels will solve the cabinet resonances. Link for 'Deadsheet': (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk...d/262?osCsid=1f524475fdfcb70e83e7121c66dc3dd1)
I really like the sound, theres virtually no sibilance at all and they produce nice clean treble. Im really happy with the integration with the RTL2 midbass. The Morels seem to blend niceley.
Ive been advised that the Scanspeak 18W/8545-00 should work wel in the RTL cabinet. Ive seen a speaker design using this midbass with a D2905/9500 tweeter (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm) and the mesurements are good.
Im considering attempting to incorporate this design into the RTL2 cabs. I'll need to make a completely new front baffle for this and in doing so I can give myself a little more volume to the box. The RTL2 cab is 25.5 ltr's which is enough for this driver. I can get it up to 26 with the new front baffle.
For a cheap and easy upgraed just fit the Morel MDT30's and upgrade the wire. Also fitting the Deadsheet panels will solve the cabinet resonances. Link for 'Deadsheet': (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk...d/262?osCsid=1f524475fdfcb70e83e7121c66dc3dd1)
Update:
I have since upgraded my mains cable to Lapp CY with silver connectors. Great results but has the side effect of highlighting the brightness of my system.
I have ordered Jantzen Cross caps for the tweeter, and new resistors of a slightly larger value to drop the treble a tad.
The original tweeter section cosists of:
6 uF electrolytic Cap.
1.5 ohm 5w Resistor.
I had to order 2x 5.6uf and 2x 0.39 uf, as this was the closest match I could find. For the resistor I'v ordered 1.8 ohm, may try 2ohm later.
Im going to first try installing only the 5.6 uf and see how that affects the crossover point. If theres a difference it will probably be subtle. We'll see.
Once ive dtermined what sounds best I'll be ordering new coils and better resistors and re doing the whole crossover. Ive decided to do this rather than modding the entire speaker and changing drivers etc, allthough I may still do the above mentioned at a later date.
There is another interesting thread on the RTL2 here:
http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41991
Cheers, Mike.
Report coming soon.
Mike
I have since upgraded my mains cable to Lapp CY with silver connectors. Great results but has the side effect of highlighting the brightness of my system.
I have ordered Jantzen Cross caps for the tweeter, and new resistors of a slightly larger value to drop the treble a tad.
The original tweeter section cosists of:
6 uF electrolytic Cap.
1.5 ohm 5w Resistor.
I had to order 2x 5.6uf and 2x 0.39 uf, as this was the closest match I could find. For the resistor I'v ordered 1.8 ohm, may try 2ohm later.
Im going to first try installing only the 5.6 uf and see how that affects the crossover point. If theres a difference it will probably be subtle. We'll see.
Once ive dtermined what sounds best I'll be ordering new coils and better resistors and re doing the whole crossover. Ive decided to do this rather than modding the entire speaker and changing drivers etc, allthough I may still do the above mentioned at a later date.
There is another interesting thread on the RTL2 here:
http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41991
Cheers, Mike.
Report coming soon.
Mike
I dont have facilitys to mesure but to my ears there seems to be a little too much overlap - between drivers - now the Morels are in. If you were looking at a reading in clio et al, you'd probably see a bump in the 2-3 khz area.
Using a slightly smaller Cap, combined with a tad more resistance should do the trick I think. The smaller Cap will make the Treble roll off a little earlier in the lower range, and the overall output will be a touch lower. Fingers crossed, it seems the right way to go but you can never tell without proper mesurements. Im exited about it though. Should get the caps this week. Ive also got some dimple foam to try out.
If it works out I'll be re-popul;ating the rest of the parts with some nice stuff from Jantzen audio
Upgraded Crossover and new damping material.
Hello!
I completed the first speaker today!
Fitted the 5.6uf Jantzen Cap and the new resistor. Added the Dimple foam. Added bitumin to the frame legs of the midbass.
Initial listening is very promising. On the track 'Take a breath' (from David Gilmours 'On an island' album) the Hi-Hat and Symbols were still clearly audible during the guitar solo, despite Gilmours screaming Stratocaster. During this solo the other instruments are much better defined where before they were drowned out almost completely! The clarity is much better, percussion and vocals sound more natural. Thers less of a 'shhhh' sound to the treble. And the added bonus is, the effect of better treble means the midrange and upper bass are better defined also. Theres a slight problem of the Bass sounding a little loose, probably because I left out some of the stuffing. I'll put more in and try it in different areas. Also I plan to fit some Dowling between the front and rear baffles to give the midbass something solid to screw into. Atogether the sound is warmer and smoother, without sounding wooly, for want of a better word.
Tomorrow after work I'll finnish the other speaker and give them a couple of days on repeat to burn in. Will post results.
Pictures here: click.
Hello!
I completed the first speaker today!
Fitted the 5.6uf Jantzen Cap and the new resistor. Added the Dimple foam. Added bitumin to the frame legs of the midbass.
Initial listening is very promising. On the track 'Take a breath' (from David Gilmours 'On an island' album) the Hi-Hat and Symbols were still clearly audible during the guitar solo, despite Gilmours screaming Stratocaster. During this solo the other instruments are much better defined where before they were drowned out almost completely! The clarity is much better, percussion and vocals sound more natural. Thers less of a 'shhhh' sound to the treble. And the added bonus is, the effect of better treble means the midrange and upper bass are better defined also. Theres a slight problem of the Bass sounding a little loose, probably because I left out some of the stuffing. I'll put more in and try it in different areas. Also I plan to fit some Dowling between the front and rear baffles to give the midbass something solid to screw into. Atogether the sound is warmer and smoother, without sounding wooly, for want of a better word.
Tomorrow after work I'll finnish the other speaker and give them a couple of days on repeat to burn in. Will post results.
Pictures here: click.
Attachments
Nice!
I bought TDL RTL2's at full price (about £300) from the showroom.... After 3 weeks I substituted the tweeters for a titanium/polymer Audax unit that Maplin used to offer (mid 1990's I guess). For an extra £30 at the time, replacements really begun to sort them out. The original fabric domes had a slight colouration that I found annoying.
I upgraded the crossovers with better caps and lined the boxes with carpet. That was as far as I got, but they are still going strong and I love the sound.
Good to see they are still around - have fun,
Ed
I bought TDL RTL2's at full price (about £300) from the showroom.... After 3 weeks I substituted the tweeters for a titanium/polymer Audax unit that Maplin used to offer (mid 1990's I guess). For an extra £30 at the time, replacements really begun to sort them out. The original fabric domes had a slight colouration that I found annoying.
I upgraded the crossovers with better caps and lined the boxes with carpet. That was as far as I got, but they are still going strong and I love the sound.
Good to see they are still around - have fun,
Ed
Hi Ed.
I'm glad you like it! Keep an eye on this thread as I plan a few more tweaks later.
The dowling mentioned above is the next step. Should tighten up the bass. Followed by the rest of the crossover upgrade. I decided on components from Jantzen Audio as they are reccommended by the speaker guru Troels Gravesen. I've been reading his site regularly for the last year and I've learnt so much. His site is fantastic, with lots of designs and usefull information and tips.
After doing the crossover I'll be re-covering the cabinets with a nice 1/8" Birch Ply from Riga in Latvia. 1/8" because I want to keep the overall size down, I like the 'dinkyness' of the RTL2. My Girlfreind happens to come from Riga so she loves the idea! Probably going to make up new front baffle from 10mm Mdf - painted black - and glue it on over the existing one. I want to try flush mounting the midbass. Might get a proffessional to do that bit! Then the whole thing will be finnised to a 'piano gloss'.
I was planning a complete new speaker based on the RTL cabinet but decided against it after this latest mod. The speaker is sounding really good - apart from the Bass problem - that it wouold be a shame to change everything. I want to keep it a TDL RTL2 as much as possible, just a better one.
Im going to draw up an image of the finnished article on the computer like I did above. I'll post it here soon.
Cheers,
Mike
I'm glad you like it! Keep an eye on this thread as I plan a few more tweaks later.
The dowling mentioned above is the next step. Should tighten up the bass. Followed by the rest of the crossover upgrade. I decided on components from Jantzen Audio as they are reccommended by the speaker guru Troels Gravesen. I've been reading his site regularly for the last year and I've learnt so much. His site is fantastic, with lots of designs and usefull information and tips.
After doing the crossover I'll be re-covering the cabinets with a nice 1/8" Birch Ply from Riga in Latvia. 1/8" because I want to keep the overall size down, I like the 'dinkyness' of the RTL2. My Girlfreind happens to come from Riga so she loves the idea! Probably going to make up new front baffle from 10mm Mdf - painted black - and glue it on over the existing one. I want to try flush mounting the midbass. Might get a proffessional to do that bit! Then the whole thing will be finnised to a 'piano gloss'.
I was planning a complete new speaker based on the RTL cabinet but decided against it after this latest mod. The speaker is sounding really good - apart from the Bass problem - that it wouold be a shame to change everything. I want to keep it a TDL RTL2 as much as possible, just a better one.
Im going to draw up an image of the finnished article on the computer like I did above. I'll post it here soon.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike,
That's cool! How do they sound now? I always regarded these speakers as a bit of a sleeper. It was fashionable at the time to go for the latest Mission etc. etc. and TDL were brave to launch into that particular area of the market. Now they are a DIY fiddler's dream if you can get them so inexpensively.
I remember auditioning the RTL1 (bookshelf version), and the floorstanders, 2, and 3. The 1 was nice, but I wanted a floorstander (and the deeper bass...). The 3 I considered a bit loose sounding.
I'd play around more with my set if the time was available...
Ed
That's cool! How do they sound now? I always regarded these speakers as a bit of a sleeper. It was fashionable at the time to go for the latest Mission etc. etc. and TDL were brave to launch into that particular area of the market. Now they are a DIY fiddler's dream if you can get them so inexpensively.
I remember auditioning the RTL1 (bookshelf version), and the floorstanders, 2, and 3. The 1 was nice, but I wanted a floorstander (and the deeper bass...). The 3 I considered a bit loose sounding.
I'd play around more with my set if the time was available...
Ed
They sound really good. Im amazed how lucky ive been with my tweaks and the Jantzen caps are great. The sound is much smoother and the brightness is gone. Initally they sounded a little dull but theyve come to life now. Later I'll add Jantzen coils and better resistors.
I finnished modding my CD player today. Thread here The bass problem is not so bad now. I changed the position of the stuffing in the speaker and that improved things too.
I need to let the CD burn in for a couple of days then see how its doing. So far so good!
Thanks, Mike.
PS: which caps did you use?
I finnished modding my CD player today. Thread here The bass problem is not so bad now. I changed the position of the stuffing in the speaker and that improved things too.
I need to let the CD burn in for a couple of days then see how its doing. So far so good!
Thanks, Mike.
PS: which caps did you use?
Good question.....
Think I ordered from one of the suppliers that used to advertise in "Hi Fi World" It was a polypropylene film type of quite large construction for the tweeter circuit, and I forget what was used for the mid-bass section, though I remember combining parts, so it might have been a better quality bipolar electrolytic and a film capacitor in parallel to make up the same overall value.
Cheers,
Ed
Think I ordered from one of the suppliers that used to advertise in "Hi Fi World" It was a polypropylene film type of quite large construction for the tweeter circuit, and I forget what was used for the mid-bass section, though I remember combining parts, so it might have been a better quality bipolar electrolytic and a film capacitor in parallel to make up the same overall value.
Cheers,
Ed
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