I have been running my 'maggie horns on top of my sansui's for about a year now. I recently redid the boards they are on. I was simply running them off of the main line with a 2.2uf np cap. I have found it to be a tad harsh and overbearing at times.
I don't have the time to order some high quality caps right now ( will later) so I need a quick fix. I found that 1uf works best for what I want, and it gives the high end a certain aireyness without being overbearing. I am going to go to the shack and get a 1uf np cap, but I want to know opinions on the following:
Electrolytic
Tulantum
Metal Film
I was thinking about going with metal film, what do you guys think?
I don't have the time to order some high quality caps right now ( will later) so I need a quick fix. I found that 1uf works best for what I want, and it gives the high end a certain aireyness without being overbearing. I am going to go to the shack and get a 1uf np cap, but I want to know opinions on the following:
Electrolytic
Tulantum
Metal Film
I was thinking about going with metal film, what do you guys think?
Metal film, preferably polypropylene. Aluminized film second best. Some electrolytics sound soft, many do not. Unfortunately there are a lot of concerns beyond type; lead attachment being one.
It takes caps a while to break in (shouldn't but it does) so early comparisons can be misleading.
Tantalums are not a good idea at all; one of the few cap types that show easily measured distortion.
It takes caps a while to break in (shouldn't but it does) so early comparisons can be misleading.
Tantalums are not a good idea at all; one of the few cap types that show easily measured distortion.
hey thanks for the responce. I bought two 1uf metalized film caps. 250wvdc, gee thats a lot of wattage there 
Don't think my tweeters will be seeing more than 10 watts haha.
Anyways I am putting them in now, I will let you know how they sound, and try to post pics after I stain the bases for the horns.
Don't think my tweeters will be seeing more than 10 watts haha. Anyways I am putting them in now, I will let you know how they sound, and try to post pics after I stain the bases for the horns.
The quick fix to a nonpolar
The quick fix when using a nonpolar cap is to put a small value metal film cap across it. In a pinch, here are two caps that are readily available and offer excellent value and sound.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...Metal+Film+Capacitors&fbc=1&parentPage=family
http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...Metal+Film+Capacitors&fbc=1&parentPage=family
Though I'm new to this forum, I've been a broadcast and recording engineer for over 25 years and have been rebuilding equipment for longer then that.
The quick fix when using a nonpolar cap is to put a small value metal film cap across it. In a pinch, here are two caps that are readily available and offer excellent value and sound.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...Metal+Film+Capacitors&fbc=1&parentPage=family
http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...Metal+Film+Capacitors&fbc=1&parentPage=family
Though I'm new to this forum, I've been a broadcast and recording engineer for over 25 years and have been rebuilding equipment for longer then that.
I've been into audio for 11 plus years and I have heard dozens of capacitors. Everything from military specd, to audiophile grade. Ranging in price from just a few pennies to hundreds of dollars.
And the best capacitors that I have ever heard are Vishay. These are made in Germany by Vishay Roederstein to be exact, model number MKT 1822. They were previously know as the ERO capacitors. The MKT1822 is a box style timing capacitor, made out of metalized polyester. They range from 1000pF - 15.0uF and have voltages from 63vdc - 250vdc.
Most audiophiles will disagree because it goes against all audiophile grade logic. They don't have Teflon, copper foil, silver foil, polypropylene/foil design, silver leads, oil, etc. But what they have is what counts, absolutely stunning sound.
It is virtually vale free and grain free. I have never heard any other capacitor come close! They have incredible resolution and sparkle to the high frequency. The term "liquid" should have been invented for these caps. Plus they have the most un-electric midrange I have ever heard. The best part is that they are dirt cheap, a few bucks max for the larger values. And they work as well in speaker crossovers as they do as coupling or bypass capacitors in amplifiers, preamps, dacs, etc. Here's a list of just the few capacitors which I compared the MKT 1822's to.
AuriCap
Hovland
SCR Solen
Jensen
RelCap Audio Cap Theta
MultiCap RTX
MultiCap PPMFX
Russian Military Teflon High Voltage Types
And the best capacitors that I have ever heard are Vishay. These are made in Germany by Vishay Roederstein to be exact, model number MKT 1822. They were previously know as the ERO capacitors. The MKT1822 is a box style timing capacitor, made out of metalized polyester. They range from 1000pF - 15.0uF and have voltages from 63vdc - 250vdc.
Most audiophiles will disagree because it goes against all audiophile grade logic. They don't have Teflon, copper foil, silver foil, polypropylene/foil design, silver leads, oil, etc. But what they have is what counts, absolutely stunning sound.
It is virtually vale free and grain free. I have never heard any other capacitor come close! They have incredible resolution and sparkle to the high frequency. The term "liquid" should have been invented for these caps. Plus they have the most un-electric midrange I have ever heard. The best part is that they are dirt cheap, a few bucks max for the larger values. And they work as well in speaker crossovers as they do as coupling or bypass capacitors in amplifiers, preamps, dacs, etc. Here's a list of just the few capacitors which I compared the MKT 1822's to.
AuriCap
Hovland
SCR Solen
Jensen
RelCap Audio Cap Theta
MultiCap RTX
MultiCap PPMFX
Russian Military Teflon High Voltage Types
Nagysaudio, I got 4 of the Vishay MKP1837 caps.............I have not installed them yet, as I am in the process of tweaking my crossover with a few notches...........When I get to the point of finally bypassing, can these values be used on the midrange as well as the tweeter?...........Do they pose any potential problems for the safety of my drivers? {maybe a dumb question}. In your experience, does the difference these Vishays make come quickly, or is there a "break in" time for the difference to become noticeable?............Respectfully...............Omni
I agree...
Vishay caps do sound good-and you can even find them in Radio Shack capacitor assortment kits from time to time. Here's an example of what he speaks of-five caps for $1.50. These caps are quite usable for bypassing larger nonpolars, filter design, DC coupling (though I prefer servos for this-opamps are cheap enough these days).
http://www.opamp-electronics.com/~opamp/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1145
Roderstein also makes very good sounding metal film resistors that are also dirt cheap. radio Shack used to sell an assortment of them for a few dollars. Alas, they discontinued them a couple years ago. I built many projects with those kits.
Vishay caps do sound good-and you can even find them in Radio Shack capacitor assortment kits from time to time. Here's an example of what he speaks of-five caps for $1.50. These caps are quite usable for bypassing larger nonpolars, filter design, DC coupling (though I prefer servos for this-opamps are cheap enough these days).
http://www.opamp-electronics.com/~opamp/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1145
Roderstein also makes very good sounding metal film resistors that are also dirt cheap. radio Shack used to sell an assortment of them for a few dollars. Alas, they discontinued them a couple years ago. I built many projects with those kits.
Hi Omni,
Even thought the Vishay MKP 1837 is of better construction (polypropylene vs. polyester), the MKT 1822 still sounds better.
However, the MKP 1837 will still sound fantastic!
What values do you have? You did not indicate that in the post. If you're bypassing, they should be about 0.1uF. This will not have any effect on the crossover slopes and your driver will be fine.
But if you bypass them with large values (anything over 1.0uF) this will change the crossover slopes.
As for break in time, well... that's a myth.
Norbert
Even thought the Vishay MKP 1837 is of better construction (polypropylene vs. polyester), the MKT 1822 still sounds better.
However, the MKP 1837 will still sound fantastic!
What values do you have? You did not indicate that in the post. If you're bypassing, they should be about 0.1uF. This will not have any effect on the crossover slopes and your driver will be fine.
But if you bypass them with large values (anything over 1.0uF) this will change the crossover slopes.
As for break in time, well... that's a myth.
Norbert
looks like I started a popular thread here! 
Anyways, I used the 1uf metalized film caps from the shack. I don't have any inductors in there at all. Ont thing I am noticing is distortion.... The tweeters in the speakers don't distort as much, then again they do not go quite as high, even though they are metal domes. I am thinking it is my amp at fault, having nasty distortions in the upper end of the audio spectrum, but am not sure.
Can tweeters cause audible distortion? Maybe I am feeding them a range they do not like?
I do not have any specs, but they are way upper mid/tweeter/upper tweeter range Magnavox horns from a Magnavox Astrosonic console.
Anyways, I used the 1uf metalized film caps from the shack. I don't have any inductors in there at all. Ont thing I am noticing is distortion.... The tweeters in the speakers don't distort as much, then again they do not go quite as high, even though they are metal domes. I am thinking it is my amp at fault, having nasty distortions in the upper end of the audio spectrum, but am not sure.
Can tweeters cause audible distortion? Maybe I am feeding them a range they do not like?
I do not have any specs, but they are way upper mid/tweeter/upper tweeter range Magnavox horns from a Magnavox Astrosonic console.
You're crossing over really high-almost 20 kHz.
I'd use a 4.7 uf nonpolar capacitor bypassed with your Radio Shack 1 uf metal film.
That will cross you over at around 3.5 kHz-still high but not unreasonably so.
One thing that did occur to me was that perhaps your tweeters have much higher efficiency then the rest of your speaker system. That would explain a few things you've explained, as you'd be using the Xc of the capacitor as a way to reduce the level into your tweeter. The better way to do it is to use an L pad between the crossover and the tweeter. You can also use a resistor in series with the tweeter if you calculate its effect on the crossover (it will lower the frequency).
I'd use a 4.7 uf nonpolar capacitor bypassed with your Radio Shack 1 uf metal film.
That will cross you over at around 3.5 kHz-still high but not unreasonably so.
One thing that did occur to me was that perhaps your tweeters have much higher efficiency then the rest of your speaker system. That would explain a few things you've explained, as you'd be using the Xc of the capacitor as a way to reduce the level into your tweeter. The better way to do it is to use an L pad between the crossover and the tweeter. You can also use a resistor in series with the tweeter if you calculate its effect on the crossover (it will lower the frequency).
doh! didn't think of that! My metal domes SHOULD be reaching up pretty high, I think that maybe my x-overs may need some attention? The tweeters are not very loud.. This is why I added the horns.
I will try an Lpad though! I don't have some right now, I do however have some 8 ohm power resistors I can try.
I wonder how much replacing the caps in my x-overs would change/bring out the sound? They are all over 30 years old...
I will try an Lpad though! I don't have some right now, I do however have some 8 ohm power resistors I can try.
I wonder how much replacing the caps in my x-overs would change/bring out the sound? They are all over 30 years old...
gah! I tried to trace it once, gave up because of the tapped inductors. The speakers are Sansui SP-1500's,
For my magnavox horns I just have them running directly off of the main in through the cap and to the horn. Seems like thats the way they were set up originally too, however they may have had a resistor too.
Anyways... My original tweeters were 16 ohm sansui metal domes ( two per cab). I blew them in an amp connecting mishap and found an original set on ePay. However, the new set does not sound as loud as my original ones did, so it is possible I did some damage to the caps too. I believe the caps are all 50v. The amp was 100wpch.
If you are not familiar with the model, they use two 1 inch 16 ohm metal dome tweeters, One 6.5" AlNiCo V midrange , one 5" AlNiCo V upper midrange, and one 12 inch woofer, 2" voice coil and 6.5" ceramic magnet, treated inverted cloth surrounds. SP-2000's and SP-200's got AlNiCo magnet woofers
Wish I had those because these are HEAVY!
All this is housed in a 1" thick MDF cabinet with 1/4" walnut veneer and thick 1960's style diamond accoustical dampening material (looks like its made of rockwool or pressed fiber scraps)
For my magnavox horns I just have them running directly off of the main in through the cap and to the horn. Seems like thats the way they were set up originally too, however they may have had a resistor too.
Anyways... My original tweeters were 16 ohm sansui metal domes ( two per cab). I blew them in an amp connecting mishap and found an original set on ePay. However, the new set does not sound as loud as my original ones did, so it is possible I did some damage to the caps too. I believe the caps are all 50v. The amp was 100wpch.
If you are not familiar with the model, they use two 1 inch 16 ohm metal dome tweeters, One 6.5" AlNiCo V midrange , one 5" AlNiCo V upper midrange, and one 12 inch woofer, 2" voice coil and 6.5" ceramic magnet, treated inverted cloth surrounds. SP-2000's and SP-200's got AlNiCo magnet woofers
Wish I had those because these are HEAVY!All this is housed in a 1" thick MDF cabinet with 1/4" walnut veneer and thick 1960's style diamond accoustical dampening material (looks like its made of rockwool or pressed fiber scraps)
Dude, it appears that you are at a dilemma as to how to proceed with your upgrade project......... You might start by checking out www.partsexpress.com ........and Madisounds website........Parts Express is here in Ohio, and you can get some education and also purchase those caps you may need, but I am wondering, from what you describe you don't have any idea as to the component values of you capacitors or inductors?....If you are looking for value oriented capacitors, you may want to check out the Solen line that Parts Express carries or their house brand they call Dayton.............These are metalized polypropylene, which is what I would recommend.......Are you looking to rebuild the crossover entirely or simply replace a few caps? You seem unsure of whats inside.........To what extent are you willing to go and what are your expectations.........these are the first questions I would ask......Respectfully.......Omni
I do know what is inside, I just havent had the backs off since I restored the speakers. All the caps are nonpolar electrolytics. The inductors I have no way of telling what value they are, however all I am wanting to do is replace the electorlytics with new caps. I have heard several reports of these speakers beginning to sound a bit muddy when the caps start to go bad (lack of high end). They replaced the caps in the x-over and all was well again. Some said they competed with their B&O'. Anyways , I would still like to uses these horns in additon because my future plans are to gut the x-overs and triamp the speakers using a gainclone for the woofers, a PP tube amp for the mids and a SE tube amp for the highs.
However as of now I would not object to buying some nice quality caps for the X-overs. I'm sure caps from partsexpress are going to be overpriced... I will get them somewhere else like tubesandmore,tubedepot, mouser etc.
However as of now I would not object to buying some nice quality caps for the X-overs. I'm sure caps from partsexpress are going to be overpriced... I will get them somewhere else like tubesandmore,tubedepot, mouser etc.
Dude.........On the caps, suit yourself as to where to buy them......Where ever you feel comfortable is your call...........cool.........I do doubt though, that Parts Express is gonna be overpriced, but it's your call..............On the horns.........I am curious how old they are.............Back in the 70's I built a 3 way with the familiar Electrovoice Horn Tweeter.............It was at that time reported to be filled with Ferrofluid...........By the 90's, they started sounding raspy and harsh.............Finally, I blew a resistor out in the tweeter section, and because of the harsh sound, I decided to build a new system.............So I decided to perform an autopsy on the tweeter.........I took it apart, checked inside the voice coil, and found no Ferrofluid............I began wondering that after 20+ years that maybe the Ferrofluid dried out, or leaked out somehow............perhaps causing the harshness that you now seem to be experiencing with your horns .....Who knows.....Just a theory...........Another possibility..........your electrolytics may have leaked and dried out.............At any rate, I would go with the metalized polypropylenes.....no question.......Respectfully.........Omni
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