Hi,
I've been doing alot of reading lately about Balanced Power. Apparently, it lowers the noise floor anywhere from 3 to 15 dB depending on how extensively you use balanced power in your setup.
I'm shopping for a power conditioner that takes unbalanced power (i'm in the United States) and converts it to balanced power, along with doing EMI, RFI, etc. filtering and hopefully voltage regulation to maintain a steady 120 V output.
Two main questions:
1) My two main interests are from Furman and Panamax. However, they both use balanced power for all outputs EXCEPT the high current amplifier power outputs. This seems contrary to the following point:
This seems to indicate that ALL outputs on the back of a power conditioner should be balanced, INCLUDING the amplifier plugs. Is there heavy induction in the balanced transformer that could limit in-rush current to the amp? I'm an EE, and the circuit diagrams posted on the above link seem to make sense, and I see no downside to using balanced power for amps. Can you support/refute this claim? I would like some clarification on this topic.
2) What are my main product options? I will definetely consider no-name brands or personal projects, as long as I don't have to build it (I don't have time). Units from Furman and Panamax are EXPENSIVE.
I've been doing alot of reading lately about Balanced Power. Apparently, it lowers the noise floor anywhere from 3 to 15 dB depending on how extensively you use balanced power in your setup.
I'm shopping for a power conditioner that takes unbalanced power (i'm in the United States) and converts it to balanced power, along with doing EMI, RFI, etc. filtering and hopefully voltage regulation to maintain a steady 120 V output.
Two main questions:
1) My two main interests are from Furman and Panamax. However, they both use balanced power for all outputs EXCEPT the high current amplifier power outputs. This seems contrary to the following point:
(taken from http://www.equitech.com/articles/bpng.html)
This seems to indicate that ALL outputs on the back of a power conditioner should be balanced, INCLUDING the amplifier plugs. Is there heavy induction in the balanced transformer that could limit in-rush current to the amp? I'm an EE, and the circuit diagrams posted on the above link seem to make sense, and I see no downside to using balanced power for amps. Can you support/refute this claim? I would like some clarification on this topic.
2) What are my main product options? I will definetely consider no-name brands or personal projects, as long as I don't have to build it (I don't have time). Units from Furman and Panamax are EXPENSIVE.
I think the issue is that the peak currents drawn by amp PSUs demand a grossly oversized transformer, and affects the other equipment supplied. This is because the effective supply impedance is raised over just plugging directly into the wall, so noise from the amps' PSU will modulate the supply to the other equipment.
I've played with these things in the past and not found a worthwhile improvement (but then, I'm in a UK city centre = a very low impedance supply). One surprise was that using transformers of 650VA and even 1.5KVA continuous rating, the effect on a small low power amp (Nait 2, 15w max output) was to compress dynamics and 'darken' the sound unacceptably - even when used into sensitive speakers. The Nait is by no means a wide bandwith or high-powered device; and this on 240v mains, which is makes the supply impedance about 6dB less important than in the US.
I've played with these things in the past and not found a worthwhile improvement (but then, I'm in a UK city centre = a very low impedance supply). One surprise was that using transformers of 650VA and even 1.5KVA continuous rating, the effect on a small low power amp (Nait 2, 15w max output) was to compress dynamics and 'darken' the sound unacceptably - even when used into sensitive speakers. The Nait is by no means a wide bandwith or high-powered device; and this on 240v mains, which is makes the supply impedance about 6dB less important than in the US.
Hi,
I have never tried these big power filters nor the balanced supplies.
I have used the little input filters and I cannot hear any bad effects. I hope I never hear the good effects otherwise the filter is not working well enough.
I have read that some equipment can sound worse when the mains is filtered, particularly when heavy inductance is used as part of the filter.
It could be an expensive experiment.
However, search for the web site describing a DIY balanced supply using two transformers in cascade with filtering in between. The author claims great things, but he developed it. I think it is referenced in here.
I have never tried these big power filters nor the balanced supplies.
I have used the little input filters and I cannot hear any bad effects. I hope I never hear the good effects otherwise the filter is not working well enough.
I have read that some equipment can sound worse when the mains is filtered, particularly when heavy inductance is used as part of the filter.
It could be an expensive experiment.
However, search for the web site describing a DIY balanced supply using two transformers in cascade with filtering in between. The author claims great things, but he developed it. I think it is referenced in here.
look at buying a LARGE high KVA transformer off of ebay.
Forget all these wimpy current limiting things you speak of.
I bought a 600lb, 50Kva balancing transformer for......$300.00.
Plus $400 skid shipping!
Do a search, you will find some 10-50-100kva 'isolation transformers' in the industrial section. look at one that has the model # listed, so you can do a tech serch on the connections before purchasing.
You need 240/120V input..one or two electrostatic shields (faraday) and and 120/240 output.
With this, you can wire your own balancing transformer. Nevermind the big kilobuck pro units. Make your own for pennies, in comparison, with 5-10 times the current delivery.
Forget all these wimpy current limiting things you speak of.
I bought a 600lb, 50Kva balancing transformer for......$300.00.
Plus $400 skid shipping!
Do a search, you will find some 10-50-100kva 'isolation transformers' in the industrial section. look at one that has the model # listed, so you can do a tech serch on the connections before purchasing.
You need 240/120V input..one or two electrostatic shields (faraday) and and 120/240 output.
With this, you can wire your own balancing transformer. Nevermind the big kilobuck pro units. Make your own for pennies, in comparison, with 5-10 times the current delivery.
Virgo with Aquarius rising and moon in cap?
Wow. Some folks might call you adventerous/gregarious...but emotionally distant.
I have a Virgo sun at 10 degrees..conjunct mercury (0.3 degrees) conjunct Uranus (0.4 degrees) conjunct Pluto. Yes. All four planets conjunct one another. In my entire horosope, I have 8 conjunctions less than 2 degrees apart, and one more at just under 4 degrees. The most wicked chart that an astrologer (who has written 15 books)...has ever seen.
As for the bifilar winding, I've no idea. I just use the damn thing.
Wow. Some folks might call you adventerous/gregarious...but emotionally distant.
I have a Virgo sun at 10 degrees..conjunct mercury (0.3 degrees) conjunct Uranus (0.4 degrees) conjunct Pluto. Yes. All four planets conjunct one another. In my entire horosope, I have 8 conjunctions less than 2 degrees apart, and one more at just under 4 degrees. The most wicked chart that an astrologer (who has written 15 books)...has ever seen.
As for the bifilar winding, I've no idea. I just use the damn thing.
He, he...I see you are more iniciated than myself in that art
Maybe we should talk about that on other forum; we risk the sin bin
Ahem...about TX, the reactive currents have to cancel out, right. Maybe better cancelation is achieved if their winding is bifilar ??
(sorry, too sleepy and tired, even for a Virgo/capricorn)
Nice to meet you and send my greetings to your astro****
M
Maybe we should talk about that on other forum; we risk the sin bin
Ahem...about TX, the reactive currents have to cancel out, right. Maybe better cancelation is achieved if their winding is bifilar ??
(sorry, too sleepy and tired, even for a Virgo/capricorn)
Nice to meet you and send my greetings to your astro****
M
call Red Mculley at RPI transformers in Vista CA if he's still around ..
he can build you what ever you need.. for a decent price..
if you don't get a shielded ISO transformer you are wasting your time..
Rule of thumb..
get a XFMR 2.5x the size of your amp tranny..
most of the industrial formers do not have high current rush ratings.
look at their slew rates..
all current power stations have too high impedence and compress dynamics in my opinion.
it takes lots of large gauge copper and iron ( ie, expensive) to do what audio guys need
I run a 15 kva unit as my main and then slice off iso's for my equipment indivually.
DEAD quite.. NO compressed sound fields or darkending.
he can build you what ever you need.. for a decent price..
if you don't get a shielded ISO transformer you are wasting your time..
Rule of thumb..
get a XFMR 2.5x the size of your amp tranny..
most of the industrial formers do not have high current rush ratings.
look at their slew rates..
all current power stations have too high impedence and compress dynamics in my opinion.
it takes lots of large gauge copper and iron ( ie, expensive) to do what audio guys need
I run a 15 kva unit as my main and then slice off iso's for my equipment indivually.
DEAD quite.. NO compressed sound fields or darkending.
Balanced Power Concernes
Well, I'm not exactly the authority here on balanced power, but I personally wouldn't want to live without it now that I've experienced it for myself. I too did months worth of research, reading everything I could get my hands on about balanced power ( I wish I could remember all that reading) and decided to build my own unit. I had a custom 2400 VA toroid built by Plitron. I gotta tell ya, I love this thing except for the weight. It weighs in around 56lbs, not too bad, but not too good either.
Everything I have used this on thus far has only gained improvement. I run my stereo receiver, TV, DVD player, Cable box and also my desktop and laptop computers on this transformer. I have used this long enough now to feel confident in recommending balanced power to everyone. That's not to say that everyone will appreciate it, but should definitely try it for them selves.
The first thing I noticed with this transformer was how alive my tweeters sounded, and that's only because the first thing I wired up was my home stereo. The second thing which almost knocked me over was my TV and the fact that now all of a sudden I get the color white,(if that's even a color).
Ever since I had this 43" panasonic which is about 2 years now, I have fought to get white out of the thing, and failed miserably. Now all of a sudden, when running on balanced power, white is a little too white, so instead of turning up the contrast, I now had to back it way down. I'm sorry, but that is simply amazing! You would agree with me if you knew how darn hard I worked to get white, but at best could only get a pale gray or tainted yellow. So anyway, the white problem is now SOLVED with balanced power. White is pure white, black is blacker then black and the detail is so much improved now because of this.
The audio has improved in every way that I can hear. It's quite amazing really, it seems subtle at first with the exception of my tweeters, but the more I listen the more perceived gain I can hear. The tweeters really jumped out at me at first but then I noticed how distant all of the instrument seemed, neither my speakers nor I moved, but everything sounded bigger then it did before. I'm sure bigger is not part of an audiophile's vocabulary when describing sound, but it's the best I can do on short notice
I've tried this transformer with filters and without, in my experience thus far, I'd say maybe go for surge protection, but otherwise, leave the filters out.
Filters did weird things with the color of my video, very unrealistic looking things when dealing with color. They also hurt my audio. Yes hurt, yet another big word from my small vocabulary. Long story short, I love the transformer on transformer alone, no filters involved. The difference was enough that even my half blind and part def girlfriend could even notice the difference without me mentioning a word to her, she noticed the difference all on her own, and guys, I'm tellin ya, that really means something!
So yeah, call up plitron and order this thing! I'm here in PA and plitron is out of Canada, with shipping to my door I spent $315.00 for a 2400 VA transformer encased in an aluminum housing which is really nice and of coarse, it's brand new. I honestly couldn't be happier with my investment. We have all pissed away a lot more money then this on a whole bunch less bang for the buck!
Balanced power Rocks!
It may be my opinion is now tainted, but honestly, my computers seem to run a little faster on balanced power, GOD knows the monitor sure looks smoother and more detailed then before.
I freekin LOVE it, and I don't have any filters in place right now, analogue and digital are all running from the same source.
Someone in this thread asked about running amplifiers on a balance transformer, forgive me here, I'm bad with names. But anyway, yes, you can and should run your amps on a balanced transformer but there is a catch. You must not exceed the transformers ability to supply current (amperage).
You've already read about the rule of thumb, your transformer needs to be minimum 2.5 times the size of your load.
Well, maybe that doesn't sound so nice but you know what I mean. Look at your max current rating of your amp compared to the current rating of your transformer, then do the math, is your transformer 2.5 times larger then this? If so then you should be OK but just OK.
Some here may be familiar with this, but some may not. There is a way to greatly exceed the capacity of any transformer, actually, there are several ways but I'm only going to mention one. If you can tie in a large enough capacitor or multiple capacitors to the secondary output of the transformer, you can have more then enough energy (current) stored and on charge to supply the power needed for that heavy bass note when your amp needs it. You can easily exceed the transformer and the wall outlets current capacity with a properly sized capacitor. Bass amps are the only thing you need to be concerned with when dealing with these capacitors.
Caps can make a world of difference for a power supply, Furmans new line is currently using them, this is how they claim to be able to exceed 20 amp wall current, and it's true, they can, but only in short bursts.
Mid and tweeter amps don't draw all that much current, they can't because their crossed over at higher frequencies. Bass is the power that drives and you need a lot of power to drive it! That's really the only power monster in any system, it's the bass amp!
I have not yet finished my power conditioner and I'm not currently running my sub amp on my balanced transformer, but I will when I finish the math and the enclosure.
That's my two cent's worth, I hope I wasn't a bore and thanks for reading
Well, I'm not exactly the authority here on balanced power, but I personally wouldn't want to live without it now that I've experienced it for myself. I too did months worth of research, reading everything I could get my hands on about balanced power ( I wish I could remember all that reading) and decided to build my own unit. I had a custom 2400 VA toroid built by Plitron. I gotta tell ya, I love this thing except for the weight. It weighs in around 56lbs, not too bad, but not too good either.
Everything I have used this on thus far has only gained improvement. I run my stereo receiver, TV, DVD player, Cable box and also my desktop and laptop computers on this transformer. I have used this long enough now to feel confident in recommending balanced power to everyone. That's not to say that everyone will appreciate it, but should definitely try it for them selves.
The first thing I noticed with this transformer was how alive my tweeters sounded, and that's only because the first thing I wired up was my home stereo. The second thing which almost knocked me over was my TV and the fact that now all of a sudden I get the color white,(if that's even a color).
Ever since I had this 43" panasonic which is about 2 years now, I have fought to get white out of the thing, and failed miserably. Now all of a sudden, when running on balanced power, white is a little too white, so instead of turning up the contrast, I now had to back it way down. I'm sorry, but that is simply amazing! You would agree with me if you knew how darn hard I worked to get white, but at best could only get a pale gray or tainted yellow. So anyway, the white problem is now SOLVED with balanced power. White is pure white, black is blacker then black and the detail is so much improved now because of this.
The audio has improved in every way that I can hear. It's quite amazing really, it seems subtle at first with the exception of my tweeters, but the more I listen the more perceived gain I can hear. The tweeters really jumped out at me at first but then I noticed how distant all of the instrument seemed, neither my speakers nor I moved, but everything sounded bigger then it did before. I'm sure bigger is not part of an audiophile's vocabulary when describing sound, but it's the best I can do on short notice
I've tried this transformer with filters and without, in my experience thus far, I'd say maybe go for surge protection, but otherwise, leave the filters out.
Filters did weird things with the color of my video, very unrealistic looking things when dealing with color. They also hurt my audio. Yes hurt, yet another big word from my small vocabulary. Long story short, I love the transformer on transformer alone, no filters involved. The difference was enough that even my half blind and part def girlfriend could even notice the difference without me mentioning a word to her, she noticed the difference all on her own, and guys, I'm tellin ya, that really means something!
So yeah, call up plitron and order this thing! I'm here in PA and plitron is out of Canada, with shipping to my door I spent $315.00 for a 2400 VA transformer encased in an aluminum housing which is really nice and of coarse, it's brand new. I honestly couldn't be happier with my investment. We have all pissed away a lot more money then this on a whole bunch less bang for the buck!
Balanced power Rocks!
It may be my opinion is now tainted, but honestly, my computers seem to run a little faster on balanced power, GOD knows the monitor sure looks smoother and more detailed then before.
I freekin LOVE it, and I don't have any filters in place right now, analogue and digital are all running from the same source.
Someone in this thread asked about running amplifiers on a balance transformer, forgive me here, I'm bad with names. But anyway, yes, you can and should run your amps on a balanced transformer but there is a catch. You must not exceed the transformers ability to supply current (amperage).
You've already read about the rule of thumb, your transformer needs to be minimum 2.5 times the size of your load.
Well, maybe that doesn't sound so nice but you know what I mean. Look at your max current rating of your amp compared to the current rating of your transformer, then do the math, is your transformer 2.5 times larger then this? If so then you should be OK but just OK.
Some here may be familiar with this, but some may not. There is a way to greatly exceed the capacity of any transformer, actually, there are several ways but I'm only going to mention one. If you can tie in a large enough capacitor or multiple capacitors to the secondary output of the transformer, you can have more then enough energy (current) stored and on charge to supply the power needed for that heavy bass note when your amp needs it. You can easily exceed the transformer and the wall outlets current capacity with a properly sized capacitor. Bass amps are the only thing you need to be concerned with when dealing with these capacitors.
Caps can make a world of difference for a power supply, Furmans new line is currently using them, this is how they claim to be able to exceed 20 amp wall current, and it's true, they can, but only in short bursts.
Mid and tweeter amps don't draw all that much current, they can't because their crossed over at higher frequencies. Bass is the power that drives and you need a lot of power to drive it! That's really the only power monster in any system, it's the bass amp!
I have not yet finished my power conditioner and I'm not currently running my sub amp on my balanced transformer, but I will when I finish the math and the enclosure.
That's my two cent's worth, I hope I wasn't a bore and thanks for reading
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