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Old 7th February 2007, 12:50 AM   #21
TechGuy is offline TechGuy  United States
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>I'm sorry, but I still don't see any reason to use flipping for halfbridge instead the full bridge 200VDC invertor, because mosfets, diodes and caps will use same type and quantity

I think you mean 340VDC bridge not 200VDC. 120VAC = 2*120*1.414 (peak-to-peak). Its much safer to do 170V to -170V than to go 0 thru 340V. You would still need to boost the input voltage at 170VDC (full bridge rectified) to 340VDC which adds complexity and decreases efficiency. Plus your only using half of the rectified voltage for half of the cycle. The Bottom half of the cycle would probably need to be switched twice as fast as the top half of the cycle in order to get good regulation, which would complicate the design.

>flipping will have outstandingly poor precision and nothing more

Not really. It flips on a zero voltage crossing boundary. There should be no distortion when it flips because its switched when the AC output voltage is at zero volts.

>I'm sure, that taking feedback from the outlet directly, it is most important feature for AC regenerator

The feedback loop just need to regulate the voltage for half on a sine wave and the flipping bridge does not affect precison. There are no components after the bridge to distort the feedback voltage. The feedback input would be taken after the output caps and inductors, behind the flipping bridge.

FWIW: This techique is commonly used for PWM controlled UPS systems.
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Old 7th February 2007, 07:45 AM   #22
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Does anyone know of some PWR circuit diagrams to play with?
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Old 7th February 2007, 07:53 AM   #23
IVX is offline IVX  Russian Federation
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TechGuy, unbelievable, but i go to 3th attempt to explain a BTL mode (BTL=H-brige=Full-bridge PWM invertor).. google it please, or just trust me -even 170VDC enough to poduce 120VAC RMS, but we take 170VDC+18% for insurance, hence, your 340VDC (i've used around 380VDC, BTW Eva [diyaudio.com member] too ) enough for 230VAC RMS regeneration. H-bridge already have "intelligent" (in the feedback loop) flipping mechanism, but not BANG-BANG flipping around zero crossing. In the Uninterruptible PS systems several percent of the distortion it's ok, but our task is the high precision audio (diyAUDIO.com), and i see no logic to buy regenerator ($1500-3000) with THD 3%, if i can see 3% from the wall. Nice if your "flipping bridge does not affect precison", however, the switchers must have zero Ohm On_state (and 0nS response), i can't find such yet. Well, how i told above, only feedback from the outlet can give precise sine regenerator in the real world.
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Old 7th February 2007, 12:43 PM   #24
AMV8 is offline AMV8  United Kingdom
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Hi

Originally posted by TechGuy


To further reduce noise and distortion, a synthesized sine wave can be generated to reduce or eliminate harmonics. Google for "Magic sine waves" for more info.

Hope this was useful.

I have been using this approach to power my turntable for 10 years. It works well and makes a major difference in the clarity of notes.
I tried it on a class A pre amp and found little if any change in performance against a regulated power supply for the pre amp.I later used this approach to power a cd player and found a modest improvement.

Don
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Old 8th February 2007, 11:33 PM   #25
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I'm not sure what the difference is between an AC Power "conditioner," "filter," or "regenerator" ... but I have a congested electrical environment in my listening room with a computer on the same circuit as my amps and source equipment. The switching power supply adds a lot of noise to my power and you can hear it in the preamp and the amplifiers.

What do you guys think about using Auricaps to filter AC current? They are not AC rated, but apparently there are some manufacturers/assemblers who use them and claim them to be effective in clearing up muddy AC power.

Example:

VH Audio - Hot Box

Quote:
If you need mild AC filtration, the filtered version of the Hot Box is outstanding.

An optional power filter upgrade may be purchased for an additional $99.99. The filter consists of two .47 uF 600V Auricaps per receptacle (4 caps total) connected between line and neutral. Simply order the Hot Box, and then order the filter upgrade for $99.99. --From vhaudio.com
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Old 9th February 2007, 12:00 AM   #26
AJT is offline AJT  Philippines
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Quote:
Does anyone know how to build a Power Line Conditioner?
this is my homebuilt power conditioner....it has emi filters, surge protectors, and isolation transformer.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 9th February 2007, 02:26 AM   #27
TechGuy is offline TechGuy  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by IVX
TechGuy, unbelievable, but i go to 3th attempt to explain a BTL mode (BTL=H-brige=Full-bridge PWM invertor).. google it please, or just trust me -even 170VDC enough to poduce 120VAC RMS, but we take 170VDC+18% for insurance, hence, your 340VDC (i've used around 380VDC,
OK, now I see what you're suggesting. I completely miss- interpreted your early posts. Sorry about that!

What I had proposed is to let the PFC controller synthesize half of a sine wave so that it would compensate for voltage sags and over voltage conditions. The feedback loop for the PFC controller would be configured so that instead of generating a fixed 170VDC, it output half a sine wave. The output would be tied a Flipping bridge. In this configuration, there would be no need for an additional PWM bridge. I assume you though my intention included a seperate Bridge for AC synthesis, which I did not. I apologize if that was unclear.

I suppose in your suggestion, the PFC would output a fixed 170VDC and a separate PWM controller would be used to synthesized AC waveform using a BTL. Although additional switching losses would occur because of the ripple current across the output inductors and caps (proportional to the BTL switching freq.) during low output current loads (I'm assuming variable load s). Assuming this was your intention, there would be no significant difference in switching parts between what I have proposed and your suggestion.

I don't see an easy way to replace the PFC to provide voltage boost during voltage sags, with a BTL. If you have a better way, I am all ears.


Quote:
Originally posted by IVX
but our task is the high precision audio (diyAUDIO.com), and i see no logic to buy regenerator ($1500-3000) with THD 3%, if i can see 3% from the wall.
[/B]
FWIW: I believe the thread was started on the idea of protecting electronic equipment from under and over line voltage conditions in a region (South Africa) that has low quality power. I am not sure if very low THD was a concern (for a non-audio application) and efficiency was important. In the case of minimizing THD over efficiency, the suggestion you have proposed would be a better. Although this is an "audio" forum, there is lots of discussions about non-audio SMPS applications.

PS. Another idea that might reduce distortion and improve efficiency would be to use PFC interleaving, just add more time and $$$.

Take Care!
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Old 9th February 2007, 02:39 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by mjraudio
What do you guys think about using Auricaps to filter AC current? They are not AC rated, but apparently there are some manufacturers/assemblers who use them and claim them to be effective in clearing up muddy AC power.
It probably will help, but don't brace yourself for large change. I buy Elgar conditioners ... active units that buck or boost line voltage on a feedback mechanism that compares output voltage against a reference sine wave. I think the original cost of these beasts is $6000, and I usually pay little more than $100. They're rated at some god awful 30A peak, with output distortion 0.2% max for 10% incoming distortion.

Anyways, because they're so cheap, I've been experimenting running them in series. Putting one into my system made a very nice difference. Two in series made another nice difference. Three in series yet another. Putting an isolation tranformer before the lot further improved matters. Putting a balanced AC transformer between Elgar 1 and Elgar 2 also improved things. Take it from my extreme (and quite enjoyable) experiment: line borne noise is insidious.
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Old 9th February 2007, 08:30 AM   #29
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Default suppressing noisy PSU

Hi,
if the PSU proves to be injecting noise into the nearby analogue stages then it can only be coming from two directions, through the air, or through the mains wiring.

Put the isolator/conditioner/filter on the supply to the noisy PSU. The output of that noisy PSU should be unaffected by this change and you only have to filter one supply.

All the audio around the house should now be quieter.

Give it a try and tell us if it works.
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Old 9th February 2007, 10:34 AM   #30
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Tony, itís looking dam nice, do you have any circuit diagram?
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