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Old 20th January 2007, 10:14 AM   #11
AKN is offline AKN  Sweden
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Hi,

70% efficiency seems low.
An online UPS (constant regeneration) can have obove 85% efficiency at distorsion less than 3%.
http://www.powerware.com/UPS/9120_Specs.asp
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Old 20th January 2007, 10:28 AM   #12
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3% THD is hardly worth the inefficiency though - I see about 4-5% out of the wall, see http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html

I suspect the only real difference will be the noise spectrum, and rather higher output impedance from the UPS - which virtually guarantees the UPS/regenerator has vastly increased %THD under load. Also, FWIW, some years ago I built a small 240v regenerator to have a quick look at the problems the approach brings. I can confirm power efficiency was dismal, though not the point of the exercise A short write-up is here:
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_regen.html

More on DIY regeneraton in a previous discussion in this forum:
Anyone Build a Power Regenerator?
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Old 20th January 2007, 11:37 AM   #13
IVX is offline IVX  Russian Federation
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Quote:
Originally posted by martin clark
3% THD is hardly worth the inefficiency though - I see about 4-5% out of the wall, see http://www.acoustica.org.uk/other/mains_noise.html
In the night i see 3% sometimes. So, most products on the market seems just useless, whatsoever efficiency, due to too high output impedance. Even stepup trafo free design, proud if had 500mOhm (e.g. Exactpower)! Simple simulation will show 1% at 500-700W (power factor ~.7, 120VAC) at 500mOhm in serial to IDEAL sine source.
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Old 21st January 2007, 09:20 PM   #14
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Autotransformer?
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Old 21st January 2007, 11:35 PM   #15
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Originally posted by ak_47_boy
Autotransformer?
A ferro-resonant transformer provides a modicum of regulation, but the output spectrum distortion is awful.
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Old 2nd February 2007, 10:03 PM   #16
TechGuy is offline TechGuy  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by jackinnj



Regeneration is at most 70% efficient, the rest goes up in heat.
Where did you hear that? Its possible to get inverters to operate at 98% efficiency with low THD. Quality off-grid inverters have 98% efficiency over a signicant power load range.

Quote:
Originally posted by jackinnj
>Ya know, I talked to Don Lancaster about that...
[/B]
And? It seemed like intriguing concept, although I don't know how well it really works.
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Old 2nd February 2007, 10:49 PM   #17
TechGuy is offline TechGuy  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by IVX
[A) IMO, flipping isn't good solution in the precision terms, i wouldn't be able to take the feedback after all. In the USA 120VAC, so just a 200V mosfets required, why the flipping is needed?
[/B]
You would be rectifying AC-mains into 170VDC using a PFC. to get back to Full 120VAC, its 340V peak to peak. The feedback input for the controller is taken before the flipping bridge.

You could opt for a PFC to output at 340VDC instead but:
1. You lose some efficiency in the Buck-Boost circuit. Or you would need to use a step up transformer (more $$$)
2. You will need to use higher voltage Mosfets which have higher RDS ( lower switching efficiency and higher heat dissapation)
3. You will need to use higher voltage Diodes which usually have a higher built-in voltage and probably slower recovery which results in efficiency losses and higher heat dissapation.
4. You need higher voltage caps (more $$$) that usually have higher ESR.
5. Your feedback control will probably be more complicated since the voltage must swing across 340V Peak-to-Peak.
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Old 3rd February 2007, 01:26 PM   #18
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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Quote:
Originally posted by jackinnj


Ya know, I talked to Don Lancaster about that...

Regeneration is at most 70% efficient, the rest goes up in heat.
Linear sine synthesis tops at a theoretical 70% maximum efficiency. Switched-mode sine synthesis tops somewhere between 90% and 99% depending on design and component choice.
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Old 3rd February 2007, 01:38 PM   #19
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Yes, I should have side regeneration via sinewave is at most 70.7% efficient. The sinewave will have a minimum of spurious radiation.

If you look at the quiet switchers from Linear Tech they have a much higher conversion ratio but the waveform is more of a smoothly clipped sine wave --
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Old 6th February 2007, 04:32 PM   #20
IVX is offline IVX  Russian Federation
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Quote:
Originally posted by TechGuy


You would be rectifying AC-mains into 170VDC using a PFC. to get back to Full 120VAC, its 340V peak to peak. The feedback input for the controller is taken before the flipping bridge.

You could opt for a PFC to output at 340VDC instead but:
1. You lose some efficiency in the Buck-Boost circuit. Or you would need to use a step up transformer (more $$$)
2. You will need to use higher voltage Mosfets which have higher RDS ( lower switching efficiency and higher heat dissapation)
3. You will need to use higher voltage Diodes which usually have a higher built-in voltage and probably slower recovery which results in efficiency losses and higher heat dissapation.
4. You need higher voltage caps (more $$$) that usually have higher ESR.
5. Your feedback control will probably be more complicated since the voltage must swing across 340V Peak-to-Peak.

I'm sorry, but I still don't see any reason to use flipping for halfbridge instead the full bridge 200VDC invertor, because mosfets, diodes and caps will use same type and quantity, so, flipping will have outstandingly poor precision and nothing more. I'm sure, that taking feedback from the outlet directly, it is most important feature for AC regenerator, without it any "AC regenerator for audio" just an expensive toy, they offer you 1-2% instead 3-5% from the wall. I can show here some pics, if you want, ~400W@230VAC real amp loaded regenerator with 4mOhm@50Hz vs 4+100mOhm@50Hz it gave .008% vs .02% THD, for 110-120VAC all things will be worse, obviously.
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