Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Power Supplies
Home Forums Rules Articles Store Gallery Blogs Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd December 2006, 09:53 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
ifrythings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default High side drive in a full bridge( or Half) converter

Well I'm about to kill google

I'm trying to learn about high side driving in a full bridge(or half bridge) converter that uses mosfets as the switches and drive transformers for the drive and isolation.

Google has betrayed me anyways enough about google.

Does anyone have a nice document or site explaining this with a diagram (the best way I learn, Pictures ) or posibly a few shematics to study.

Oh, and one more request, what the heck is a RESONANCE MODE SWITCHING REGULATOR? I have an IC (CXA8038) that was used in a big power supply that was half bridge from what I could see on the layout of the board.

Anyways all help and info would be extremly appreciated

Thanks

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2006, 09:52 PM   #2
luka is offline luka  Slovenia
diyAudio Member
 
luka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: in Slovenia :)
Send a message via MSN to luka
See (3.5.8 Base and Gate Drive Transformers) in Marty Brown - Power Supply Cookbook (2nd ed.)(2001) book, there you will find everything you need.
__________________
home page @ http://www.classdaudio.co.cc @ 24/7 all year long
I FEEL SLOVENIA
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2006, 10:04 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
ifrythings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Hmm. I don't think any local books stores are going to have that in stock You have the ISBN #?

Do you know of any sites or documents I could look at while wait for the book?

Thanks

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2006, 10:20 PM   #4
luka is offline luka  Slovenia
diyAudio Member
 
luka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: in Slovenia :)
Send a message via MSN to luka
hm... ISBN 0-7506-7329-X is I think.
http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=075067329x
__________________
home page @ http://www.classdaudio.co.cc @ 24/7 all year long
I FEEL SLOVENIA
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2006, 05:29 AM   #5
batee is offline batee  United States
diyAudio Member
 
batee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rolla, MO
This is one of the most elusive subjects I've ever researched. Some pieces of info I've found that helped me understand this issue the best are:

TI App Note on Driving FETs called slup169.pdf
http://www.ti.com/litv/pdf/slup169

IRF AN-978 Gate Drive Comparison
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/an-978.pdf

I tried the approach of using the IRF driver ICs (at a cost of $7 each plus boards and support components, plus $100s of FETs they destroyed) and they just weren't working. It took me 6 months to figure out why: They only work within a narrow PWM duty cycle. Otherwise they can't keep up. The IRF appnote talks about providing a continuous gate drive with these ICs, but it's complicated and I just didn't trust them after all the FETs they destroyed.

I tried pulse transformers. They're heavy, they take lots of support components to implement properly, they're susceptible to stray magnetic fields turning on your FETs, and they usually only work for the designed PWM frequency. Fast turn-off requires additional passives and semiconductors, and it just took too much space. Again, it doesn't work for continuous gate drive (PWM duty cycle = 100%).

Then I found some transistor /diode circuit that was supposed to generate an isolated power supply from the high side line. It looked really complicated and I didn't use it, but it gave me the idea to use four isolated DC-DC converters to turn on each of the FETS in my H-bridge. C&D makes some ultracheap ones that are just tiny (1/4 cu in) for $8.

I was working with high voltage DC link, and still needed isolation for the turn-on circuitry and then needed a FET driver IC to provide the high current necessary for fast turn-on of large FETs and IGBTs. I've always heard that Optos were too slow and not well suited for this purpose, but it turns out that Agilent / Avago has some awesome optocouplers specifically for this purpose, such as the HCNW3120, and they even have FET drive circuitry built-in.

Circuit description: A 12VDC power supply powers all four converters. The 15V output of the isolated converters in turn power the output circuitry of the Agilent Optos. The Optocoupler inputs (LEDS) are powered directly from a PIC or anything with Open Collector outputs and 15mA capability. There's a gate resistor to tailor switch-on current/time in parallel with an "Anti-parallel" diode to vastly increase turn-off time. My FET driver uses four of these circuits to drive an H bridge. Only two were really necessary, but I opted for symmetry over cost to reduce the timing issues that will surely be encountered when building your own FET gate drive. It works great for H- bridges, half-bridges, it also becomes an LV/HV BLDC motor controller, HV lighting controller, all sorts of things.

If you're considering this, draw out an H bridge and make sure that you understand all of the five separate ground planes that a circuit like this really involves, and that you keep them separate!

Most of the app notes I've read came to the conclusion that FET driver ICs were the way to go, and that isolated power supply gate drive was either slow or expensive. With all the money I've wasted on FETs, gate drivers, boards and research time, I think they're totally wrong. My circuit works for 0-100% duty cycle, for DC Link voltages of 1000-3500VDC (depending on which DC-DC converter and Opto you buy).

The other day I was browsing the Powerex site and found a development board meant to power their FETs and IPMs. They list a schematic that was almost identical to what I describe above (they also include desat detection), so I think I'm on track here.

If others have information on this subject, please let me know.

Thanks!

Bryan A. Thompson
bryan@batee.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2006, 06:09 AM   #6
batee is offline batee  United States
diyAudio Member
 
batee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rolla, MO


Schematic

Board w/H-Bridge

Bryan A. Thompson
bryan@batee.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2006, 08:31 AM   #7
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
Eva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Near the sea
Send a message via MSN to Eva
I have used both the IR gate drivers (IR2112, IR2113, IR2010) and high speed optocouplers, either basic ones like 6N137 and HCPL2630, and the ones with integrated gate drive from Avago (formerly Hewlett Packard) like HCPL3020 and HCPL3120. IR gate drivers obviously require the high side cell to be powered in some way, either by actively limiting duty cycle to 1% or 99% to ensure permanent switching and bootstrapping, or by providing an external floating power supply, which must feature very good common-mode filtering in order to handle fast switching transients. Optocouplers can be powered in the exact same two ways but they tend to draw 10 to 50 times more current than IR gate drivers, thus making bootstrapping more difficult.

Optocouplers provide isolated drive for free, which sometimes is a great advantage, however, they are only suitable for moderate or low speed switching applications. That's because their main pitfall is false triggering in high speed switching circuits because even the best ones are rated at just 10V/ns or 15V/ns guaranteed common-mode inmunity. Another disadvantage of HCPL optos with built-in gate driver is the pulse width distortion, specified to be +/-350ns typically, and the turn on/off delays also in the 300ns range, thus imposing quite long dead times to account for part to part mismatching. IR ICs tend to specify delay matching within +/-30ns allowing for much tighter dead times.

On the other hand, IR gate drivers are rated at 50V/ns thus allowing for reliable operation in high voltage high speed switching circuits. Also, I'm not aware of any reliability problem with these ICs if you know how to use them, for example, my last class D amplifier contains a half bridge powered with +408V and driven with a IR2113 and can produce over +/-40A peak output current (that the magnetics can't handle, so it's actively limited to 30A). I have never yet managed to blow any IR2113 or MOSFET/IGBT with that IC. The modulator is designed to keep always switching and avoid bootstrap capacitor discharge. Furthermore, turn-off voltage slopes approach 30V/ns at higher loads, something that even the best optocouplers can't handle.
__________________
I use to feel like the small child in The Emperor's New Clothes tale
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2006, 08:41 AM   #8
luka is offline luka  Slovenia
diyAudio Member
 
luka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: in Slovenia :)
Send a message via MSN to luka
Eva

Why will u intend to use this D-amp for? Sound to me like so high power motor driver, or is it?

My IR2110 didn't give me any problems at all.
__________________
home page @ http://www.classdaudio.co.cc @ 24/7 all year long
I FEEL SLOVENIA
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Bridge X Half Bridge: What's The Best? CHACALPOWERS Power Supplies 8 18th July 2008 04:45 PM
The difference of Push-pull,Half-bridge,Full-bridge digi01 Chip Amps 0 8th September 2006 02:10 AM
n-mos half-bridge class D amp, how to drive high side n-mos? zilog Class D 1 30th October 2005 09:46 PM
Whats the difference between full bridge and half-bridge SMPS ? skaara Class D 6 3rd February 2005 07:23 PM
Half or full H bridge? Reaper Class D 0 21st July 2004 03:48 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:50 PM.

Page generated in 0.11681 seconds (83.60% PHP - 16.40% MySQL) with 10 queries

Copyright ©1999-2012 diyAudio