About Jung super regulator

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Hello :D

After readings about regulatots, I have Jung super regulator ( schematics attached ) but I'd get your advice about some substitions parts.

AD 825
  • JFET input
  • High output current
I want to replace it with TL 071 but i'm afraid by a low output current of this one which makes the transistor didn't provide too much current in the case of an HFE around 40. Otherwise, i canuse a most expensive one as OPA 13x.

2N5087
I've read I can replace it with 2N2907, so I can replace it with a BC 327. Am I wrong ?


Yhanks you for your help
 

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MaxS:
Analyze the schematic provided, the output tr. better replaced by a darling ton. and the ccs 2n5087 is redundancy, Just a single resistor could do the job fine. it only provides the bias current to drive the output stage, due to an IC is employed for error amp, also U use a LM317 for pre-reg. this psu is good for most application, more than enough as a bench supply. IC is better to choose a high slew rate, then any change of the output voltage can immediately corrected.

Your IC took the voltage from the output side is not advised, it better get the voltage from a regulated source.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:


WE IMPROVE BETTER DESIGN
 
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mitwrong said:
MaxS:
Analyze the schematic provided, the output tr. better replaced by a darling ton. and the ccs 2n5087 is redundancy, Just a single resistor could do the job fine. it only provides the bias current to drive the output stage, due to an IC is employed for error amp, also U use a LM317 for pre-reg. this psu is good for most application, more than enough as a bench supply. IC is better to choose a high slew rate, then any change of the output voltage can immediately corrected.

Your IC took the voltage from the output side is not advised, it better get the voltage from a regulated source.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:


WE IMPROVE BETTER DESIGN

As being involved in the development of the 'Jung' superregulator, you CANNOT replace the CCS by a resistor and expect the same performance. ALL parts of this design are carefully selected to give overall top performance. Before starting to modify it (which will most likely make things worse anyway) you MUST read the articles.

Taking the opamp supply from the REGULATED output is REQUIRED for this performance. Taking it from the source will make performance worse.

I am afraid that your 'advises' make a good design worse...

A TL071 will have no output current problems; the max output current depends on the ccs current and not on the opamp. However, the '071 has less gain at higher frequencies so the Zout will increase and the ripple and noise rejection will be a bit less at the top of the audio spectrum with respect to using one of the recommended high speed opamps. Whether you can hear that depends on a lot of other factors, you could just try it out.

Jan Didden
 
Jung Super Regulator

Jan Didden:

I do learning English, but I will never speak to a Lawyer.

May be my suggestion makes your design worse? I pointed out the reason is base on theory, have you try and test them?

I was a psu designer, would you give a comparison on the item below and see the difference?

Regulation:1 at no load
2 at full load
3 from load to off load ( transient )
4 ripple
5 holdup time ( rise and fall time )
6 noise ( spikes )
7 input AC variation ( + - 20 % )
8 stability ( change in volts duration for 8 hrs )

IC works better on regulated voltage, If the supplied voltage varies, the working condition will be change, as you use the ic as voltage error amplifier, with the supplied voltage varies, would you get stable output?

With constant current supplied to the series output transistor base, also the output of U1, How can Ib of Q1 change?

Have you checked for circuit oscillates?

This is Forum! not a place for arguing, I just point out what we have seen, From our experience, your circuit seems has a little problem. ( not at good working condition )

I've been study the cct. from famous brand psu manufacturer like Kepco, Lambda, Soresen, TDK, Astec ------etc, nothing designed as such like???????

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:


WE CHECK CCT. LOGICAL AND SENSIBLE
 
Nordic, Andrew T:

Thanks for your supports, Argument is accept, but don't pin point on person! We just want to discuss technical matter, design, schematic, or material ( parts ). The way we argue is base on facts, theory, results, experience, supporting figures.
sometimes may use logical sense. That's the way what we like.

For the schematic Nordic requested, I will post till I have drawn it.
Sorry for delay.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:

WE ARGUE WITH TECHNICAL SUPPORTS
 
AX tech editor
Joined 2002
Paid Member
Re: Jung Super Regulator

mitwrong said:
Jan Didden:

I do learning English, but I will never speak to a Lawyer.

May be my suggestion makes your design worse? I pointed out the reason is base on theory, have you try and test them?

I was a psu designer, would you give a comparison on the item below and see the difference?

Regulation:1 at no load
2 at full load
3 from load to off load ( transient )
4 ripple
5 holdup time ( rise and fall time )
6 noise ( spikes )
7 input AC variation ( + - 20 % )
8 stability ( change in volts duration for 8 hrs )

IC works better on regulated voltage, If the supplied voltage varies, the working condition will be change, as you use the ic as voltage error amplifier, with the supplied voltage varies, would you get stable output?

With constant current supplied to the series output transistor base, also the output of U1, How can Ib of Q1 change?

Have you checked for circuit oscillates?

This is Forum! not a place for arguing, I just point out what we have seen, From our experience, your circuit seems has a little problem. ( not at good working condition )

I've been study the cct. from famous brand psu manufacturer like Kepco, Lambda, Soresen, TDK, Astec ------etc, nothing designed as such like???????

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:


WE CHECK CCT. LOGICAL AND SENSIBLE


I worked on this circuit with Mr Jung. I invite you to replace the ccs with a resistor and compare your measurements with ours.
If you want comparative data, please see the article series in Audio Amateur with full curves and specs.

Also, please look again at the circuit. The opamp IS supplied from the regulated output voltage.

You apparently do not really understand the workings of the regulator, if you say 'how can it work with a constant current?'. The base current changes because the opamp regulates the difference between the ccs and the required base current. Using a ccs instead of a resistor means that the loop gain is much greater; the opamp works with a load of the very high dynamic impedance of the ccs versus the much lower impedance in the resistor case. And, the higher the dynamic resistance, the higher the loop gain and the tighter the regulation.

If you would read the article series in Audio Amateur in I think 1994, there is a whole section where I explain stability issues and oscillation and make recommendations for the best opamp.

BTW, your suggestion to replace the series transistor by a darlington will virtually guarantee oscillations due to the increased gain with increased phase shift within the loop.

And please, don't compare a high performance circuit like the Jung reg with run-of-the-mill Lambda or Kepco. There is really no comparison!

Jan Didden
 
Re: Re: Jung Super Regulator

janneman said:



And please, don't compare a high performance circuit like the Jung reg with run-of-the-mill Lambda or Kepco. There is really no comparison!

Jan Didden

Excuse me! I don't understand what do you mean by no comparison ? I do know US Army, Air Force, Navy, uses The above mentioned PSU manufacturer. But I never heard of Jung regulator they been employed.

Is there any Jung reg. sell on market? I really want to buy one for research, that's our interest!

We are dig into any technique that are claimed " high performance and high technique ". Please do let us know and guide us to get one.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:

BIGEYES AND SMASH LOOKING FOR A JUNG REG.
 
AX tech editor
Joined 2002
Paid Member
Re: Re: Re: Jung Super Regulator

mitwrong said:


Excuse me! I don't understand what do you mean by no comparison ? I do know US Army, Air Force, Navy, uses The above mentioned PSU manufacturer. But I never heard of Jung regulator they been employed.

Is there any Jung reg. sell on market? I really want to buy one for research, that's our interest!

We are dig into any technique that are claimed " high performance and high technique ". Please do let us know and guide us to get one.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:

BIGEYES AND SMASH LOOKING FOR A JUNG REG.


The supplies you mentioned are orders of magnitude worse in specs that are important to audio, that is what I mean by no comparison. I am familiar with military hardware, and I am sure a Lambda will continue to work at 105 degrees Celcius as well as survive a plane crash. Surely that is not the first priority you look for in low level audio supplies?

Many people on this forum offer Jung-type supplies, just do a search. The whole design has been extensively discussed on this forum and published in Audio Amateur, see www.audioxpress.com for more info.

Mr Jung used to be a contributor at this forum. One of the reasons he left was becaus people were thougthlessly (sp?) throwing around 'improvements' to his design without even understanding how it works.


Jan Didden
 
some of the things which were learned about the super reg were published in TAA over 10 years ago -- that the AD797 might not have been the best opamp for the design, a reader with start-up problems, curing oscillation -- the one thing stressed again and again by the authors was the need for careful layout.

i had the happy occasion to build a copy of the noise measurement apparatus which was described in TAA (the TAA design used SSM2017s which are now "unobtanium"). This lead to other experiments in noise quantification, and my realization that noise, EMI, RFI were not phantoms but real gremlins in the audio chain, and this lead to a modded Adcom GFP-565 which is in constant use.

As I recall, Jan was most painstaking in making the impedance measurements of the design.

Old Colony sound sells the boards for the original design -- and TAA tells how to update them for the most recent design. the design is also discussed by WJ in EDN and is in their archives. Regrettably, TAA has not yet put out a compendium CD for their various publications of the 1980's and 1990's.
 
Jan:

Sorry for my misunderstanding on the Jung reg. In Asia, we only get in touch with famous brands, and dig into it. we, the first time heard about the Jung reg. that's why argument raise up.

On the other hand, we really want to research on this reg. Please tell us more about it. Thanks, anyway.

Kindly, guide us to the web, or net where these information could be obtain. In our side, may be our info. left behind.

Anyway, thank you very much.

WE ARE HUMBLE TO LEARN NEW TECHNIQUE
 
ah yes, the ongoing "controversy"

can a ~20 year old published circuit which was never patented be "stolen"

which circuit itself could be considered as derivative of the vacuum tube "super regulator" printed in Horn&Horn nearly 50 yrs ago

If the authors wish to keep their names off of someone’s product they do have some rights, but not to the circuit itself at this point

What part of “public domain” do you not understand?

are Hugh Dean, Rod Elliot "pirates" for profiting from kits - their circuits certainly look like the "prior art" to me, just how many products out there truly have unique, enforceable IP, and does society benefit any less because some can profit filling needs with known technology?

no need to repeat this thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=243428#post243428
 
Someone (forgot who) gave me this info, from a book 1977, Mr. Kaneda. Anyone seen any older info?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Compare the schematic, it's almost identical (in general) to the Jung Regulator with the exception of newer and MUCH better parts. Mr. Jung has also changed some critical design elements. The sharp eyed person notices also that the transistor at the opamp output was later added as an improvement in the late articles. The trick with this regulator is to choose the right parts and make the pcb pattern otpimal and that is more important if you want a fast regulator.
 
AndrewT said:
sounds like another circuit is about to be pirated and sold on for a profit.


jcx said:
ah yes, the ongoing "controversy"

can a ~20 year old published circuit which was never patented be "stolen"

Hey, Gents:

In this world, not be everybody loves money, or like to steal design.

We are people just like to research on new things, a group of people like audio, psu, auto, mobile,------ etc.

We are not on business, NOTHING TO SELL, we do research on our interest, not to gain any profit out of our research. we have all types of circuitry and design, and we kept them just for our references, and we will never disclose these info to other or public, when we finished one research, the related info will be destroyed. So don't worry about we will steal other design for profit. Thats the way what we do.

If one doesn't want his or her design or schematic open to public, or let other people to know or make use of, please kept them in a safe, don't post on public!

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :smash: :smash: :smash:

MAY GOD BLESSED THOSE DESIGN AND SCHEMATIC
 
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