Alternative regulator for Jung

[okina]

Hi.
One Japanese biggest kit supplyer, his namae is Fujiwara, told that
he would make power supply unit kit next time.
We can view the shematic from his BBS.
http://bbs.infoseek.co.jp/Board02?user=h_fujiwara_1995

and this is final version he announced.
http://easy-audio-kit.hp.infoseek.co.jp/temp/image6.jpg
http://easy-audio-kit.hp.infoseek.co.jp/temp/image8.jpg

From his comment.
[the following is not my idea, my knowledge, but just translation]
JP is option that user can add coil.
C9,C10,C11,C12 should not put low-ESR cap.
And he also said that this circuit was not inferior to Jung Super regulator.
He cleared a problem of circuit stability with IC making reference Voltage, which Jung cleared with LM317 pre regulator.
He mentioned to problem of Jung's regulator that Voltage from Zener is noisy .
So his circuit has more clear reference volt with zener-less.
Considering whole elements, He said that His regulator was little better.
And jung's regulator and his have same problem with high frequency noise rejection.
The problem is how to remove high frequency noise.

He said that his circuit can add Jung's some (complicated) ideas.
Jung's regulator would get any idea from his regulator ?
Are ther any uncomplicated idea from Jung's to Fujiwara's?

 

[peranders]

I'll guess your japanse friend has misunderstood som things about the Jung Regulator.

The presented solution is not bad but some properties can be made better, i.e PSRR.

1 If the reference is at the regulated side the reference will be fed by a very stable voltage.

2 If the opamp is fed from the regulated side it will sence noise from the unregulated side.

3 If the series transistor is fed from a class A stage it will increase the speed of the output stage.

4 A preregulator LM317/337) will increase the PSRR even further (it was the real purpose for it!)

You said "too noisy", the Jung regulator is extermely low noise so can you explain what "too noisy" is compared to what?

 

[okina]

Thank you for your reply.

I think we can compare the noise of the reference with zener and without zener.
He may think the reference without zener is very important.
Can Jung Super Regulator get reference voltage from IC like he did with TL431 ?

He recognized the validity of Pre-regulator, but he also said
this approach would complicate average DIYers.
If there ware simple, but great PSRR and low noise regulator.

 

[peranders]

A super regulator can use various types of references, TL431 is of them, other examples may be ADR42x from Analog Devices, LM329 is good and there are many more.

Was your first post more like a statement or was some questions involved? :scatch:

In order to get a Super Regulator to be "super" you must use a fast opamp, but not too fast, a wideband output stage and on top of this a good pcb layout.

What your friend has designed now is a "Sulzer" regulator which has been around many decades now.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sulzer+regulator

 

[okina]

A super regulator can use various types of references, TL431 is of them, other examples may be ADR42x from Analog Devices, LM329 is good and there are many more.

http://tangentsoft.net/elec/bitmaps/jung-regulator-2000.png
Is this the newest moded version ?

In order to get a Super Regulator to be "super" you must use a fast opamp, but not too fast, a wideband output stage and on top of this a good pcb layout.

could you tell me some good opeamps for "super" ?
I know fast opeamps and also ultra-fast opeamps,
but I don't know which one is enogh fast or too fast.

What your friend has designed now is a "Sulzer" regulator which has been around many decades now.

Oh, I didn't know his design is old type of Super Regulator.

Thanks alot.
Your replies are really helpful for me.
If you would not mind my personal questions, I'm happy.

 

[jan.didden]

A super regulator can use various types of references, TL431 is of them, other examples may be ADR42x from Analog Devices, LM329 is good and there are many more.

Was your first post more like a statement or was some questions involved? :scatch:

In order to get a Super Regulator to be "super" you must use a fast opamp, but not too fast, a wideband output stage and on top of this a good pcb layout.

What your friend has designed now is a "Sulzer" regulator which has been around many decades now.

http://www.google.com/search?q=sulzer+regulator

I agree P-A, the friend's proposals are steps backwards. I may be prejudiced having been involved with Walt in the developments of these super regs, but I haven't seen ANYTHING on this forum that wasn't a step backwards in performance. (Of course, if you tell people that, they come back saying it sounds better. End of discussion of course).

The layout and PCB are a major factor, just swapping refs and opamps but using a less well optimised PCB is again a giant step backwards. Sometimes we should accept the fact that modding without fully understanding what you do is very likely making things worse. A single wrong ground wire may increase Zout and output noise 10 to 100 times easily, without the modder having the slightest idea. I know this is a sensitive point, but this is how it is. Do you think people like Walt Jung are stupid? Do you think people like him work for a year on a circuit and then somebody comes along, plugs in another opamp and presto! there's an improvement? You got to be kidding! Do you know how many opamps have been tried, measured, discarded in the long design process? I can go on and on, and I am sure P-A you understand all this, my talk is more addressed to the original poster. Your friend has no idea what he is talking about.

Jan Didden

 

[jackinnj]

could you tell me some good opeamps for "super" ?
I know fast opeamps and also ultra-fast opeamps,
but I don't know which one is enogh fast or too fast.

there were 4 articles in Audio Amateur in 1995, and a follow up article by Walt in 2000 in Audio Electronics. (Jan wrote one of the 1995 articles) In the 2000 followup the AD817 and AD825 were preferred over the AD797 despite the latter's ultra-low noise.

Old Colony Sound (which is the storefront for AudioXpress) still carries boards for the 1995 regulators. These can be updated to the most recent version. http://www.audioxpress.com/bksprods/pcbs/circuitsbuild.htm


Susbcribing to AudioXpress is very worthwhile, for just tthe reason that they keep a thread going for decades ... I am sure folks remember the first articles by Nelson Pass.., but what the heck, I am a magazine junkie and also subscribe to Elektor, Wireless World, QST, QEX, Nuts N Volts, Circuit Cellar as well as a bunch of trade magazines.

There is always some "black magic" in analog design.

 

[peranders]

Here are lot's of info

http://www.google.com/search?q=walt+jung+super+regulator

and of course Walt's own website
http://home.comcast.net/~walt-jung/wsb/html/view.cgi-showresources.html-TopRes-Walt-27s-20PDFs.html
Here at diyaudio.

super regulator
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/sear...id=43850&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

super regulator jung
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/sear...id=43851&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Using D44H11 or BD139 (100 MHz transistors) I'll guess the limit of the opamp is very near the AD825 and AD817. Many slower types will work fine like the OPA134. The only thing you must consider is min voltage and common mode limts. If you plan to have 5 volts out you must choose a 5 volts compatible aopamp.

I have heard one using some faster type 145 V/us THS4601(?) from Texas but I'm not really sure how good it actually worked.
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123686&page=4&highlight=jung

 

[Keljian]

I'm the one using a ths4601, P-A is wrong, the slew rate is 100V/uSec

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/ths4601.html

seems to be working fine to me.

 

[peranders]

A single wrong ground wire may increase Zout and output noise 10 to 100 times easily, without the modder having the slightest idea.

You are quite write about how a pcb is done and what you will get out of it. The question is though how important some parameters are. Compare Jens' rather high output impedance
regulator , approx. 0.25 ohms vs. microohms for the super regulator. The speed difference was also a factor 5-10.

Compare this difference and compare also the difference when you are using Silmics, Cerafine, Sanyo AX (in my case), Black Gate or whatever.