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No regulator for best sound?
No regulator for best sound?
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Old 30th October 2017, 09:37 AM   #21
Chris888 is offline Chris888  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analog_sa View Post
Amps are not supposed to draw audio frequencies from the mains. I am not convinced this is what really happens, but at least, by intention audio frequency current draw should exclusively be taken care of by the caps. For one, caps offer by far lower impedance then the reflected through the transformer impedance of the mains. And they offer pretty constant availability of current, unlike the mains.
That's more faith than science I suspect.
The power supply will respond to the load drawn by the audio.
The audio will be modulating the current waveforms in the power supply.
The only way that's not going to happen is if you have some freakish class A amplifier which draws the same load irrespective of programme content.
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Old 30th October 2017, 10:34 PM   #22
rickmcinnis is offline rickmcinnis  United States
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There is always the possibility of expectation bias.

Someone brought up an excellent case of this when saying that if they see on a chart that an amplifier has faithfully reproduced the test signal that the amplifier is as good as it gets. I do not see how this could possibly be any less powerful than one expecting better results from a brute force supply versus a regulated one.

I sure wish it was that easy. if it was one would think the market would be flooded with many excellent sounding amplifiers that would all, serendipitously, have the same excellent sound. But we know amplifiers do not sound the same even with specifications with variances
akin to what happens when you run the same test twice.

One would think/hope that this alone would inspire skepticism in using nothing more than measurements. To me it shows how an amplifier performs with that waveform. A waveform that has nothing to do with how music is processed by an amplifier. Sure these measurements are useful, mainly for finding gross errors but I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually listens to music cannot hear the differences between amplifiers.

I agree noise is an important thing to remove/improve. Many of the things we do just move the noise somewhere else. As in the case of Sid Smith electing to use a half wave rectifier in the 7 preamp. Certainly he did not have to worry about the cost of another rectifier. I have been listening to the SALAS with an CLCLCLC supply with a half wave rectifier since you cannot very effectively use a choke with one. I know that PSUD is a modeler like any other model - who knows how accurate their noise figures are absolutely? But one can find (and of course it is pure chance if these values really work in the real world) configurations that yield microsonic noise figures even with the half wave.

I have using this for the last six months. I hear no more noise through the (JBL 2441) than i did before. The bass is every bit as present. What is missing this noise I found akin to digital noise - not quite as prevalent but the same kind of mechanism - it is not a click or a pop, it is the hazy stuff that clouds the window. But I swear there is less of it with the half wave and I can only figure Mr. Smith heard the same thing.

Worth a try for those so inclined. It would not bother me at all for someone to write they did not find anything good at all about it after trying it. That's what these forums are all about, isn't it?
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Old 30th October 2017, 10:48 PM   #23
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
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No regulator for best sound?
when possible/applicable , I always prefer proper active ( read - having error amplifier, read - mine) Shunt Reg

when not applicable , next best thing for me is unregulated brute force (more copper/iron , the merrier) supply

series regs are reserved (in my universe) for non-audio duties ...... pure digital being slight exception
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Old 31st October 2017, 12:12 AM   #24
analog_sa is offline analog_sa  Europe
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No regulator for best sound?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris888 View Post
That's more faith than science I suspect.
The power supply will respond to the load drawn by the audio.
The audio will be modulating the current waveforms in the power supply.
The only way that's not going to happen is if you have some freakish class A amplifier which draws the same load irrespective of programme content.

This thread is about regulators or no regulators in small signal circuits. Which tend to draw constant current. Certainly with a power amp the situation is dramatically different and even a "normal" class A amp does not have constant current draw and there will be audio frequencies in the power transformer.
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Old 31st October 2017, 12:22 AM   #25
analog_sa is offline analog_sa  Europe
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No regulator for best sound?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmcinnis View Post
I have been listening to the SALAS with an CLCLCLC supply with a half wave rectifier since you cannot very effectively use a choke with one.
Do you find so many CL stages really essential if you use a regulator? TBH i have never tried more than a single choke + possibly a CM choke in this arrangement. And yes, a choke input filter is not a good idea for half wave rectification
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Old 31st October 2017, 01:52 AM   #26
stocktrader200 is offline stocktrader200  Canada
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Half wave should be worse as the ripple will be 4x higher at the ac frequency
Rather then at 2x the frequency. ( double C and L component )
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Old 31st October 2017, 03:33 AM   #27
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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No regulator for best sound?
There often seems to be an inverse relationship between the best engineering solution and claims of subjective sound quality- the more awkward the build the better- the Best cough medicine tastes awful....
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Old 31st October 2017, 03:54 AM   #28
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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No regulator for best sound?
Hi Bigun,
Quote:
the Best cough medicine tastes awful....
It really does.

I think it comes down to the fact that the more expensive or inconvenient something is, it must be better. Why else would someone go through that? B.S. baffling again, the more outrageous the story, the more people will believe it.

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Old 31st October 2017, 12:12 PM   #29
analog_sa is offline analog_sa  Europe
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No regulator for best sound?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stocktrader200 View Post
Half wave should be worse as the ripple will be 4x higher at the ac frequency
Rather then at 2x the frequency. ( double C and L component )
Ripple is not really an issue. It is easy and cheap to go bonkers with capacitance. Even with good sounding capacitors. Good sounding layered chokes are neither cheap, nor easy to squeeze in a box. I would need some persuasion before considering three of those per preamp rail.

It is interesting how different the sound with half wave rectification is. Even compared to a full wave centre tapped. I wonder if dc magnetization of the transformer core plays any role in this, although in my experiments i make an effort to equalize this with a reversely biased second winding.
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Old 31st October 2017, 12:34 PM   #30
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris888
Passive filters are essentially, on the whole bi-directional devices. That means any passive filter which blocks mains related noise from flowing to the amps is also impeding the amp's ability to draw from the supply at audio frequencies.
No. Amps do not draw audio current from the mains. They may (if Class B) draw mains current whose envelope varies with the signal envelope, but that is quite different.

Quote:
Regulators will also put some audio related signals on the rails. They have finite BW, so a big pulse of audio will pull the rail and then the regulator may overshoot as it corrects.
Yes. This is why the output impedance of a regulator matters, and why slapping on a big cap can make things worse.

Quote:
That's more faith than science I suspect.
No, it is science.

Quote:
The power supply will respond to the load drawn by the audio.
The audio will be modulating the current waveforms in the power supply.
As I said, it is the signal envelope which gets through - not the signal.

Quote:
The only way that's not going to happen is if you have some freakish class A amplifier which draws the same load irrespective of programme content.
Class A does not draw constant current from the PSU. On the contrary, it imposes the full signal as current draw. Class A draws constant average current, unlike Class B.
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