Newby here. Audiophile, have built speakers, but not electronics.
At our cabin we use a solar powered off-the-grid audio system. Sounds great, I think because power is clean. Solar panel>a bank of car batteries> inverter >audio system.
Desire best sound. Thought of upgrading to a pure sine wave inverter. Or...
Can we eliminate the inverter and build/modify a power amp to run directly off 12v car batteries? Can a car amplifier provide good sound in this situation?
Right now we are using NAD separates.
Also, thinking this might be a good idea for a cleanly powered home system, but would desire top quality there.
Thanks,
Papa
At our cabin we use a solar powered off-the-grid audio system. Sounds great, I think because power is clean. Solar panel>a bank of car batteries> inverter >audio system.
Desire best sound. Thought of upgrading to a pure sine wave inverter. Or...
Can we eliminate the inverter and build/modify a power amp to run directly off 12v car batteries? Can a car amplifier provide good sound in this situation?
Right now we are using NAD separates.
Also, thinking this might be a good idea for a cleanly powered home system, but would desire top quality there.
Thanks,
Papa
If the inverter is not an (expensive) pure sine wave generator, the power you're getting from this is far from clean. Lots of harmonics and the risk of saturating power transformers with a non-sinusoid waveform.
If it sounds better than on the normal grid supply, it is psychoacoustics. You thought the power was clean --> it must sound better.
Greetings,
Andreas
If it sounds better than on the normal grid supply, it is psychoacoustics. You thought the power was clean --> it must sound better.
Greetings,
Andreas
Not just psychoacoustics, liquor influenced psychoacoustics!
But humor me; I'm still interested in the question. What are the technical aspects of building/converting a power amp to run on DC?
It seems logical that a DC powered amp would/could be better than an amp run from an inverter. Forgive me if this question is too simplistic, but doesn't a typical home(vs. auto) power amp convert AC to DC through it's power supply? Why not just use DC directly from a battery bank? An auto power amp uses DC, so obviously it's done. That leads to the question, is an auto power amp inherently inferior or could it's circuitry be used a the basis for a quality home power amp?
Thanks.
But humor me; I'm still interested in the question. What are the technical aspects of building/converting a power amp to run on DC?
It seems logical that a DC powered amp would/could be better than an amp run from an inverter. Forgive me if this question is too simplistic, but doesn't a typical home(vs. auto) power amp convert AC to DC through it's power supply? Why not just use DC directly from a battery bank? An auto power amp uses DC, so obviously it's done. That leads to the question, is an auto power amp inherently inferior or could it's circuitry be used a the basis for a quality home power amp?
Thanks.
you are correct home amps rectify the AC to get a "DC" supply to feed the amp circuitry. Any car amp with more than a few watts output is probably using an inverter internally, as 12V is just not enough to give much power output.
The inverter is needed to step up the voltage to something higher. If you ran some car batteries in series then you could get a higher voltage. four in series would give you +- 24V if you make the earth point between battery two and three.
Tony.
The inverter is needed to step up the voltage to something higher. If you ran some car batteries in series then you could get a higher voltage. four in series would give you +- 24V if you make the earth point between battery two and three.
Tony.
High power car audio amplifiers use DC to DC converters to generate the rail voltages needed - a single 12V supply can not provide a high power output.
Low power car amps running on 12 directly, operate in bridge mode into a 4 ohm speaker to produce approx. 18W max!
The use of bridge mode eliminates the need for a output capacitor on the single ended supply but means the speakers are floating at approx 6V (half the supply voltage)
Low power car amps running on 12 directly, operate in bridge mode into a 4 ohm speaker to produce approx. 18W max!
The use of bridge mode eliminates the need for a output capacitor on the single ended supply but means the speakers are floating at approx 6V (half the supply voltage)
Your power supply, although not getting a clean sine, is perfectly capable of coping with it through normal filtering.
Before venturing in buying a so called high end inverter, or even worse, hooking up a pool of car batteries, borrow a scope and measure the ripple you get on your supply DC output (in your NAD). You might want to measure it at home also, and why not, with your computer "noise killer" power bar. You will be surprised.
It is boring but for better sound, your best bet is the speakers alley.
But this is me.
Have fun.
Before venturing in buying a so called high end inverter, or even worse, hooking up a pool of car batteries, borrow a scope and measure the ripple you get on your supply DC output (in your NAD). You might want to measure it at home also, and why not, with your computer "noise killer" power bar. You will be surprised.
It is boring but for better sound, your best bet is the speakers alley.
But this is me.
Have fun.
hey finally my first post. I too live off the grid 1600 watts of sunshine feeding 880 amphours of 24 volt deepcycle batterries. The big difference is pure sine wave inverter..no problems with most electronics from the inverter very clean power according to my scope ,cleaner then my on grid neighbours.I have had some issues from charge controllers. I have tried many and some cause noise in certain electronics;
worst noise in a cheap sub plate amp.I think it is the PWM charging algorithm in some charge controllers.
The only other issue is the need to conserve electricity.I do run an old tube amp on occasion and i like the sound but not the inefficient heat.My latest subwoofer project uses horribly inefficent (high xmax and mmd low sensitivity(83dbat 1 watt))drivers.200 watts is not enough more like 1200 watts .In stereo that would max my inverter and cause my lights to dim like when im welding. But the ribbon line speaker project will be a good fit if only i had bought the magnets when they were cheap.
Or maybe I'll get that 4000 watt mastervolt sine inverter ive been drooling over and get the windmill working again and finally put the turbine in the stream so I can build that SE SIT or OTL amp .
mark
worst noise in a cheap sub plate amp.I think it is the PWM charging algorithm in some charge controllers.
The only other issue is the need to conserve electricity.I do run an old tube amp on occasion and i like the sound but not the inefficient heat.My latest subwoofer project uses horribly inefficent (high xmax and mmd low sensitivity(83dbat 1 watt))drivers.200 watts is not enough more like 1200 watts .In stereo that would max my inverter and cause my lights to dim like when im welding. But the ribbon line speaker project will be a good fit if only i had bought the magnets when they were cheap.
Or maybe I'll get that 4000 watt mastervolt sine inverter ive been drooling over and get the windmill working again and finally put the turbine in the stream so I can build that SE SIT or OTL amp .
mark
DC-DC converters invariably work internally as DC-AC-DC converters* (it's physics
) - they are no different beast than switch-mode power supplies. That should be kept in mind with respect to the special precautions that have to be taken when using SMPS in audio (concerning switching frequency, noise, HF hash etc.).Greetings,
Andreas
*unless it's down-conversion, then they might be linear regulators or simple resistors
Thanks all.
I own a couple auto repair facilities, so I can get old batteries cheap. We replace many batteries that still have life for other uses like our cabin solar system. If I return those old batteries I only get a $4 core refund, so I'm intrigued with finding further uses for them, like DC powered audio. I could run a number of batteries in series, as suggested by Wintermute.
Given the low cost of my DC power situation, I'm wondering about other pros and cons.
My big question is - Since this DC set up is off-the-grid and it can be(I think?) simpler than a typical AC/DC power supply, can it provide superior sound?
Other considerations - Garage system, so I can put batteries outside, and there's no WAF. - Source is computer with outboard USB DAC with volume so I only need to power power amp. I would probably experiment with an old Adcom, but would like to build a low power tube amp in the future.
Thanks
I own a couple auto repair facilities, so I can get old batteries cheap. We replace many batteries that still have life for other uses like our cabin solar system. If I return those old batteries I only get a $4 core refund, so I'm intrigued with finding further uses for them, like DC powered audio. I could run a number of batteries in series, as suggested by Wintermute.
Given the low cost of my DC power situation, I'm wondering about other pros and cons.
My big question is - Since this DC set up is off-the-grid and it can be(I think?) simpler than a typical AC/DC power supply, can it provide superior sound?
Other considerations - Garage system, so I can put batteries outside, and there's no WAF. - Source is computer with outboard USB DAC with volume so I only need to power power amp. I would probably experiment with an old Adcom, but would like to build a low power tube amp in the future.
Thanks
There are some amplifiers which use "clean battery power" - for example ASR Emitter II have an option for powering from battery power supply:
take a look on here:
http://www.asraudio.com/Epdf/IEEmitter2.pdf
And if I remenber, old Technics preamp had also own Accu inside.
Those amps have battery power builded in to their design, suppose that to build new one will be easy than modify existing power supply for your equipment.
Interesting if members here have some modifications of their DIY amps that allow to switch to battery power.
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