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Old 14th January 2010, 12:40 AM   #11
rajudp is offline rajudp  India
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try changing R170 and R10 ( 150 ohm ) to 10K Resister, check the transformer windings ( calculations )
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Old 14th January 2010, 09:08 AM   #12
pergo is offline pergo  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajudp View Post
try changing R170 and R10 ( 150 ohm ) to 10K Resister, check the transformer windings ( calculations )
but make slow gate discharge with 10k, or not?
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Old 14th January 2010, 12:39 PM   #13
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Could you show the schematic of the output section with proper component values? Did you use an output inductor? The resonance is not a joke, it's not a bad thing at all, although I never liked project 89, it's good for learning because it's simple, but they can improve/optimize it in many obvious ways but the years go by and they never do. The true joke is inductor-less output regulation.

The resonant sine section should disappear in regulated circuits with output inductor operating in continuous conduction mode. Discontinuous conduction or no inductor results in sine section.

The purpose of the 150 ohm resistor is to keep the gates discharged when the SG3525 is powered off and is not supposed to be able to do it. However, 150 ohm is a very low value that results in wasted power. 10k is ok as suggested, although I never use that resistor because my multimeter tells that SG3525 can prevent the gates from being charged by leakage current even when it's powered off.

Consider replacing the gate buffer transistors by IR4427 driver IC, it will produce slightly better gate waveforms, the output swings to ground and it does not require the 10k resistor.
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Old 14th January 2010, 01:07 PM   #14
pergo is offline pergo  Italy
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thank you Eva,

i made car SMPS from 300W to 1kW (unregulated, but i tried to make regulation), and i always use mur1620ctg(r) + LC output filter.
In some tube-car SMPS i use CLC filter

Well, for LC filter i use:
- C from 2200uF to 6600uF x rail (from 300 to 1000W)
- Inductor is token by old ATX supplies (0 cost) or broken car amps (obviously with the same power i need if it's possible).

i don't know the value, even the range of inductance

As you can se in the Audison, for example, Audison LRx 1.400 inside - Amp Guts

with the same """problem""", it uses 4000uF x rail + unknown inductance. The L is made by a 1" toroid, with 20 turn of 1mm diameter wire. Don't know material, i think iron powder.

but, Phoenix doesn't have L, only C, and there is the same waveform (+ little noise). Phoenix Gold M25 inside - Amp Guts
Unfortunately i sell the Phoenix, so i can't post an image from o-scope.

For the Kicker, it has a biiig LC filter. Inductance is 1,4" iron powder toroid with 2x1mm diameter wire with a lot of winding (cannot count, but sure over 50):
Kicker XS100 inside - Amp Guts
it doesn't produce that waveforms and it uses opto+zener feedback.


now i try to change resistor to 10k and measure drain voltage.
If i can, i try the IR4427 driver

thank you

Last edited by pergo; 14th January 2010 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 14th January 2010, 02:26 PM   #15
pergo is offline pergo  Italy
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update:

this is a schematic from Audison MOSFET section (the PWM oscillator is the same of last schematic posted)

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8320/audison.jpg

you could see that the original Audison project has 22k resistor from gate to GND, to discharge it.
It doesn't use pull-down resistor after BJT buffer.
...and there is sinewave on drain


ps: Kicker has r170 e r10 of 10k (like your suggest) in parallel of zener 1n5247+1n4148 diode (anti-series). No sinewave.

Last edited by pergo; 14th January 2010 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 14th January 2010, 03:52 PM   #16
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What is the output circuit?

Forward converters are supposed to have choke-input filters. If the choke's current is continuous, the transformer's waveform is suppressed, producing a proper square wave. If you have a capacitor-input filter, you will get extremely poor regulation and most likely explode your power transistors trying!

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Old 14th January 2010, 04:19 PM   #17
pergo is offline pergo  Italy
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thank you for the reply Tim,

Audison has big choke filter in the input voltage (12V) with 4400uF capacitor.
Audison output circuit is unknown but is a normal AB mosfet amplifier.
Same circuit the Kicker XS100.

My projects always have a 100uH (minimum) choke + 2200uF capacitor for 12V input voltage.

i don't understand this:
"If you have a capacitor-input filter, you will get extremely poor regulation and most likely explode your power transistors trying"



every SMPS, regulated or unregulated i saw or made, have input capacitor.
Some have also as input choke (always in my smps).

thank you


ps: i'm talking about only push pull smps
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Old 14th January 2010, 05:16 PM   #18
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What Tim means is the choke followed by the capacitor filter following the main transformer Years ago Maplin made an SMPS kit for a pair of 50W amps to go in a car, yet they neglected to include an output inductor. Consequently the switching mosfets had to dissipate a shed load of power Simple remedy was an output inductor (choke) & an extra turn on both secondary windings of the transformer.

I think the reason Tim mentioned it is none of the circuit diagrams you have upload show an output inductor after the switching transformer.
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Old 14th January 2010, 05:34 PM   #19
pergo is offline pergo  Italy
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ahhhhh ok!

i cut the image because every smps (my, Audison, Kicker, etc.) uses different component at the secondary.
For example, I use AKA KAK diode, others use 4 single diode to220, or series double diode, or the capacitor/inductance value (only 470uF 200V for my tube preamp, but 13200uF for a rebuilt Orion smps).
So, i decide to cut the image


a question.
If i increase the output LC filter (both L and C value), the amplitude of sinewave decrease?
I ask it, so i don't waste time winding new toroid and find big capacitors
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Old 14th January 2010, 06:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pergo View Post
a question.
If i increase the output LC filter (both L and C value), the amplitude of sinewave decrease?
I ask it, so i don't waste time winding new toroid and find big capacitors
That i'm not exactly sure about. One thing i will say though is it'll seriously alter the R/C feedback components that you'll need to maintain a stable & fast closed loop on the PSU.

Generally if you decrease the value of the output inductor you can use higher value capacitors & still maintain a fairly fast transient response, but you'll again need to change the resistors & feedback capacitor/s. Increasing both will make the PSU slower in response to an increased current draw from the PSU.

There is an optimum point & this depends on a lot of things including the output inductor DC resistance, inductance as well as the capacitor value in microfarads as well as it's ESR & ESL...It gets complex
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