What makes a voltage source sound good?

[Onvinyl]

Hi,
there are zillions of threads regarding the performance of voltage regulators. There are suberb papers dealing with the superregulator of walt jung and jan didden, for instance.

What are *your* experiences which parameters make regulator sound good? Let's focus on pre- and lineamps.

I'm interested as well in probably different sonics between regulators with feedback and open loop regs (e.g. emitter followers)

Some parameters that come to my mind are:

- low noise
- low output impedance
- flat output impedance
- stability with rapid load changes (that one might be easier with open loop circuits)
- clear definition of ground (low impedance ground point)
- ...

What is *not* that ultimatly important?
- superproper voltage accuracy
- ...?

I've tried and heard not that few different approaches until now, and my biggest surprise was, how bad batteries (lead gel) sound. Lush, flat and lifeless (yes, they have very smooth and nice trebles, but that's it.)
Nearly all my experiernces where made with various MC-phono stages. And no, no scientific setting or hearing tests were made, just build&hear.

Well, as always, we need to take our choice. I've never heard a more transparent 'stage' and definition of where the instruments and singers are located as with the superreg.

An open loop shunt reg (with a discrete circuit) can make the cymbals sound *right* like nothing else I tried (I'm a bit weighted, because I'm a drummer).

What are you findings and decisions and why?

regards,
Rüdiger

[Eva]

Do some research on placebo effect.

[Onvinyl]

EVa, your post is received as rude and does not help the topic: the subjective (sonic) effects of technical design decsions. If you don't hear differences between different designs, fine, but don't ever tell me what I hear or don't hear.

Rüdiger

[guitar_joe]

sorry, but i thought it was really amusing

[Eva]

A constant voltage source can't alter an audio signal. Regulation has to be made extremely loose in order to measure significant signal changes.

On the other hand, the placebo effect has been very well documented and consistently proved over the years, unlike every word written about the subjective "sonics" of electronics.

Considering placebo effect is a must when evaluating things such as new drugs and any other thing that has to be felt by individuals and the result depends entirely on their opinions.

BTW: Only a placebo-controlled test will tell you what you hear and what you don't hear, and with no room for arguments because it just reveals your mistakes. Consider medications for example, would you pretend to know all the effects of all the madications that you have ever taken? Same happens with sound.

[SY]

Eva's point is not too far off. There are people who are passionate about batteries and think conventional supplies suck. There are people who tout series regulators, others are convinced that series regulators are no good, one must use shunt. Lots of people who think it's all hopeless and won't use active regulation at all.

The absence of any consistent pattern strongly suggests that the differences are more psychological and sociological than electrical. IME, if one gets the criteria outlined in the first post correct, then the power supply will do its job.

[auplater]

Originally posted by Onvinyl
Hi,
there are zillions of threads regarding the performance of voltage

<snip>

What is *not* that ultimatly important?
- superproper voltage accuracy
- ...?

Nearly all my experiernces where made with various MC-phono stages. And no, no scientific setting or hearing tests were made, just build&hear.

An open loop shunt reg (with a discrete circuit) can make the cymbals sound *right* like nothing else I tried (I'm a bit weighted, because I'm a drummer).

What are you findings and decisions and why?

regards,
Rüdiger

I don't take EVA's post as "telling you what you hear".

My experience is that until you do "scientific setting or hearing tests were made", you can't rule out expectation bias (aka placebo effect)... hence your findings based on "just build&hear" only apply to yourself and anyone else you happen to convince.

Seeing as a battery with sufficient current capacity would seem to represent the ultimate DC voltage source (I'm an electrochemist), your "listening observations" seem to be oxymoronic.

John L.

[Onvinyl]

Hi,
I'm aware what a placebo effect is, how it works and so on. I'm not claiming I'm immune (that would only show I didn't get how it works).

Im just as sure as one can be, that my observations are true in my specific audio chain, because it's consistent since many different tries and circuits.
I would not claim that same results in a sience magazine, beause I just didn't make those double blind test. They have their methodogical issues, but that is not my point here.

Not to seldom, I have listening results that don't fit with my presumptions. Acutally, I was sure that batteries shall sound superior. Wrong, a simple 317 based reg sounded better. The batteries were new and not shy (7.2Ah).

The same with my former tube amp: I was a tube amp believer, but then a relativly simple AB-transitor amp blew it awasy, sonically.

The difference is comparabel in some cases with up- or downgrading your cartridge: the sound is different, and often enough the subjektive rating does not reflect the price tag.

If different circuits would sound the same to me, I wouldn't bother trying diy.

I agree absolutly, that a blind test would be more telling. Sometimes I forgot which mod I exactly performed, when I switch on my system after some days. That can be very revealing.

Rüdiger

[Allen Wright]

Thinking a battery to be a good source for audio power is a big mistake, in my experience.

We planned to offer a battery pack as a third power option for our JLTi PhonoPre and a major option for our Reference Master Clock for digital players, but after some measurements, and a listening test, decided against it.

12V Gelcells have a huge amount of LF noise, starting lower in frequency than our spectrum analyser can measure (10 Hz) and extending to above 1kHz. But below 1khz, they are FAR FAR noisier than a good solid state shunt regulator, or even a LM317!

Actuality can be very different to opinion...

Regards, Allen (Vacuum State)

[Onvinyl]

Originally posted by SY


The absence of any consistent pattern strongly suggests that the differences are more psychological and sociological than electrical. I

That may be true. Or the sound (additionally) relies on parameters that we not think they might be relevant (yet). Not too seldom with audio, isn't it?

Rüdiger