Since cousin Stewie already strayed a bit off the original topic:
- Believe it or don't, I never actually heard a piece of Sansui gear back in the day except for one of their excellent FM tuners ( can't remember model number), but as I recall their reputation at the time of the Marantz/Superscope nadir was of outstanding performance and build quality from around the middle of the model line on up. I have a couple of buddies who are not wacko DIYers for whom the two receiver models cited are relished members of their harems.
- Speaking of Energy, I'd never hear a pair of those either, until just today. I spent a couple of hours at an undisclosed location in Sooke listening to a near mint condition pair of Model 22 Reference Connoisseur Edition. Considering these are at least 30yrs old, during which time the tweeter's ferrofluid damping is very likely to have dried out and need replenishment - which is apparently not all that difficult - these things are stupid good. Bass and into lower midrange perhaps not as crisply defined as latest drivers by the likes of SB Acoustics, SEAS - name your favorite flavour- but amazing extension from a single 8-ish inch in a slot vented box, and that tweeter-
Re the "lites", and the entire FH family, in the several years I've communicated with Dr Scott, I think it's been one of his pet peeves when the question us posed as to "can I scale that design to fit my favourite driver, or room constraints?" Often the answer would not pass forum decorum rules, but it's almost as if he was thinking of that with the FHs. The basic fold topolgy is virtually identical between the three, although dimensions of course have differences, and most certainly with the FH3 and Lites the basic laws of physics as apply to 3 -4" FR drivers aren't magically circumvented- high passing them in the lower mid-bass and adding competent woofers will yield huge improvement
- Believe it or don't, I never actually heard a piece of Sansui gear back in the day except for one of their excellent FM tuners ( can't remember model number), but as I recall their reputation at the time of the Marantz/Superscope nadir was of outstanding performance and build quality from around the middle of the model line on up. I have a couple of buddies who are not wacko DIYers for whom the two receiver models cited are relished members of their harems.
- Speaking of Energy, I'd never hear a pair of those either, until just today. I spent a couple of hours at an undisclosed location in Sooke listening to a near mint condition pair of Model 22 Reference Connoisseur Edition. Considering these are at least 30yrs old, during which time the tweeter's ferrofluid damping is very likely to have dried out and need replenishment - which is apparently not all that difficult - these things are stupid good. Bass and into lower midrange perhaps not as crisply defined as latest drivers by the likes of SB Acoustics, SEAS - name your favorite flavour- but amazing extension from a single 8-ish inch in a slot vented box, and that tweeter-
Re the "lites", and the entire FH family, in the several years I've communicated with Dr Scott, I think it's been one of his pet peeves when the question us posed as to "can I scale that design to fit my favourite driver, or room constraints?" Often the answer would not pass forum decorum rules, but it's almost as if he was thinking of that with the FHs. The basic fold topolgy is virtually identical between the three, although dimensions of course have differences, and most certainly with the FH3 and Lites the basic laws of physics as apply to 3 -4" FR drivers aren't magically circumvented- high passing them in the lower mid-bass and adding competent woofers will yield huge improvement
sorry for the diversion...
They are big "ballsy" receivers that sound quite good (in a high current/high power way with reams of dampening factor) with excellent control of floppy woofers.
Growing up, a friend bought a pair of these speaker and AFAIK he still has them. The tweeter is very special, and the sewn (and glued) woofer surround is something that I haven't seen n any other speakers ever. It is obvious that great care was taken building these drivers (API custom drivers). Try "straw stuffing" (as per Perkins) the port to tighten up the bass-midbass region.- Speaking of Energy, I'd never hear a pair of those either, until just today. I spent a couple of hours at an undisclosed location in Sooke listening to a near mint condition pair of Model 22 Reference Connoisseur Edition. Considering these are at least 30yrs old, during which time the tweeter's ferrofluid damping is very likely to have dried out and need replenishment - which is apparently not all that difficult - these things are stupid good. Bass and into lower midrange perhaps not as crisply defined as latest drivers by the likes of SB Acoustics, SEAS - name your favorite flavour- but amazing extension from a single 8-ish inch in a slot vented box, and that tweeter-
And yet small (4" or less) drivers have their appeal and can perform seemingly "miraculous" sound that can dispel a myth that the rules of Physics cannot be broken. Well these universal laws cannot be, but it is surprising what small drivers in a properly designed enclosure can do (using appropriate amplification). Think of the venerable LS3/5A and all of it's variants.Real, deep bass? NO but certainly quite a pleasing sound when driven with enough jam. Or the original and early series of the ProAc Tablettes. The MA CHR70 in Onken enclosures are a fine example of a loudspeaker punching way above it's weight class, as well as the Fonken enclosures for the Fostex FE108 and similar.
As a matter of interest - what would "appropriate amplification" for FHL's with Fostex FF85WK drivers be?
I was thinking of an Amp Camp Amp (5/6W, Gain at 14) for my FHL's, but Chris thinks it might run out of steam.
Sorry if it is a stupid question.. I am trying to get the right gear without too much experimentation. Thanks.
No such thing as a stupid question - but some of my answers, on the other hand.
I think a factor in the calculus of if / how soon the ACAs would run out of steam would be the room. While it's probably still my favorite Fostex driver for what it does very well - nearfield or as mid tweet in a 2-way crossed over between 200-300 or so - those pesky laws of physics do get in the way, and with a nominal sensitivity of 86.5dB and rated power handling of 5W, the 85 won't fill a big room at 40Hz
I think a factor in the calculus of if / how soon the ACAs would run out of steam would be the room. While it's probably still my favorite Fostex driver for what it does very well - nearfield or as mid tweet in a 2-way crossed over between 200-300 or so - those pesky laws of physics do get in the way, and with a nominal sensitivity of 86.5dB and rated power handling of 5W, the 85 won't fill a big room at 40Hz
of FHL and 3" drivers....and suitable amplification....
diyRookie:
I've lived with 4" drivers in my listening room (not FHs) for quite a while, but they don't do deep bass. The amount of bass can be amazing, considering the driver size, but they don't compare to a well designed 8" driver in terms of bass (like the Demetri enclosures and the 8" hemp drivers). Chris' suggestion that the FF85K is suitable as an upper frequency driver in a 2-way system should be taken into consideration, or the addition of a woofer/subwoofer capable of going to say 400Hz (to allow at least an octave of overlap) makes sense.
now amplifiers: Fostex suggests that 10W/ch "music power" is the max, with a 5 W/ch amp (here I am assuming RMS) rated input as maximum. Pick your poison. I've used amps as little as a 1.4 W/ch SET and as much as 125 W.ch solid-state amplifiers driving FE127s. Again the limit is how low in frequency and how much output in dB is expected. In very small rooms (like a bedroom/home office) desk mounted FF85Ks in a tiny enclosure would be excellent. Anything that is class A and capable of at least 10 W/ch (peak) would be my suggestion. Others may have other opinions. I would follow Chris (and Dave's) recommendations without hesitation (and the ACA should be capable of that).
diyRookie:
As Chris states, the limit is how loud in a given room. Even if the drivers have good output at a relatively low frequency, the amount of linear excursion required in a small full range driver to create that lower frequency requires more power....assuming that the suspension is suitable as well as the thermal capabilities.
I've lived with 4" drivers in my listening room (not FHs) for quite a while, but they don't do deep bass. The amount of bass can be amazing, considering the driver size, but they don't compare to a well designed 8" driver in terms of bass (like the Demetri enclosures and the 8" hemp drivers). Chris' suggestion that the FF85K is suitable as an upper frequency driver in a 2-way system should be taken into consideration, or the addition of a woofer/subwoofer capable of going to say 400Hz (to allow at least an octave of overlap) makes sense.
now amplifiers: Fostex suggests that 10W/ch "music power" is the max, with a 5 W/ch amp (here I am assuming RMS) rated input as maximum. Pick your poison. I've used amps as little as a 1.4 W/ch SET and as much as 125 W.ch solid-state amplifiers driving FE127s. Again the limit is how low in frequency and how much output in dB is expected. In very small rooms (like a bedroom/home office) desk mounted FF85Ks in a tiny enclosure would be excellent. Anything that is class A and capable of at least 10 W/ch (peak) would be my suggestion. Others may have other opinions. I would follow Chris (and Dave's) recommendations without hesitation (and the ACA should be capable of that).
Thank you for all the feedback. It all makes sense and certainly helps me to make a more informed decision. In my case, our living room is quite small (about 15 x 15 feet max) and we will be close to the speakers, and we don't do loud.
So, my feeling is the FHL's will work just fine and I will start with the ACA amp for a few good reasons. That might give me a "valid" reason to upgrade later to another amp. The wife needs reasons - I will keep on building just for fun. Can't wait.
So, my feeling is the FHL's will work just fine and I will start with the ACA amp for a few good reasons. That might give me a "valid" reason to upgrade later to another amp. The wife needs reasons - I will keep on building just for fun. Can't wait.
I am not an expert by any means...
diyRookie:
...so please consider the source (me). I would defer to Chris' suggestions before mine as he and Dave have accumulated an incredible amount of experience with the small full-range drivers in many situations and enclosures. In a small room and low listening levels I think your suggestion of an ACA and FHLs should be fine, as long as you are being realistic. Again I defer to Chris and others who have more experience with these drivers with numerous amplifiers and spaces.
diyRookie:
...so please consider the source (me). I would defer to Chris' suggestions before mine as he and Dave have accumulated an incredible amount of experience with the small full-range drivers in many situations and enclosures. In a small room and low listening levels I think your suggestion of an ACA and FHLs should be fine, as long as you are being realistic. Again I defer to Chris and others who have more experience with these drivers with numerous amplifiers and spaces.
Hello all,
I made a pair of FH Lite with vifa TC9FD-18-08, and they are VERY VERY GOOD. Smooth and extended sound, very detailed and natural. Non fatiguing.
The amp is an ACA (thanks Mr Pass) and the combo sounds very well, 6w is enough for most music and movies.
They are revealing speakers. If music is bad recorded, sounds really bad, with the best ones they are amazing. In "Skating away" Ian anderson is having breakfast beside me!!.
If you want a small, cheap and high WAF pair of speakers, this is one of the best. Not so difficult to make, a jigsaw is enough (jigsaw + router is all i used).
Really small and nice looking, the red one is a Tabaq
Thank you for a great design
And sorry for my English
Victor
So Victor how does the Tabaqs compared to FH Lite?
I used to have a pair of Tabaqs with Faitalpro 3fe22 drivers that where very good especially for the little money spent.
Maybe I need a pair of FH lites with 3fe22's, they look so tiny I could probably keep them stored out of sight and take them out when my GF is out.
Because if she sees them she will want these in the living instead of the big boxes.
Here are a couple of snapshots of my second pair of Frugel-Horn Lites. I apologize for the poor image quality.
I've left off the final finish for the moment as I'd like to varnish the enclosures with white shellac to retain the natural wood colour as far as possible. The weather's not warm enough, so varnishing is ruled out for now.
A snapshot of my old FHLs with the Alpair 5.2s mounted.
I've left off the final finish for the moment as I'd like to varnish the enclosures with white shellac to retain the natural wood colour as far as possible. The weather's not warm enough, so varnishing is ruled out for now.
A snapshot of my old FHLs with the Alpair 5.2s mounted.
As suggested by Dave (Planet 10) in an earlier post, I adjusted the front dampening in the Frugel-Horn Lites with the MA Alpair 5.2s by starting from 10 grams and increasing it in steps of 5 grams until I reached 30 grams. At this point the speakers opened up and came into their own. At 35 grams the sound started muffling. After some experimenting around the 30 grams mark, I eventually settled for 32 grams. This seemed to work well in my room. I think 30 grams +/- 2 grams as front dampening may work for most people.
These are my first Mark Audio drivers. I really like how the music sounds with these in the FHLs. It’s balanced and seamless over the frequency range. As expected, the bass reaches lower with these drivers. Mids are clean and well defined with vocals standing out very well. Highs are distinct while high-hats, cymbals and other percussion instruments sound restrained at just the right level and do not get tiresome. This makes for a pleasant listening experience. To sum up, one can expect superb all-round performance from these drivers. They have fast response and everything about these drivers exude quality and balance. As with other good drivers, any poorly recorded/engineered album end up sounding bad. They say, first impression is a lasting one and it’s true in this case also. I simply can’t get enough out of these drivers!
Before I forget, my initial listening comprised some Jazz, R&B, Soul and solo vocals apart from Indian Classical and Light Classical audio CDs and played through a Dayton Class D amp.
Comparison between two excellent drivers is always difficult and it’s no different here. I don’t have any instruments for measuring the differences so I relied on my ears. The Frugel-Horn Lites were initially designed with the Fostex FF85WK drivers in mind and hence they will remain the yardstick for driver comparisons. Both the FF85WK and Alpair 5.2 drivers stand out with their own characteristics and features. They sound smooth and even through the frequency range. However, the Alpairs have better bass extension and over-all sound warm and laid-back, much like what I heard with the TB W3-2141 drivers, only the former sound better. The FF85WKs are more forward sounding which some may find irksome after listening for a while.
Let me re-cap like this –
Fostex FF85WK – Suitable for serious, detailed and critical listening but not for prolonged periods.
MA Alpair 5.2 – Put on some good music and relax with some refreshments and your favourite libation. Prepare for an enjoyable session of listening!
These are my first Mark Audio drivers. I really like how the music sounds with these in the FHLs. It’s balanced and seamless over the frequency range. As expected, the bass reaches lower with these drivers. Mids are clean and well defined with vocals standing out very well. Highs are distinct while high-hats, cymbals and other percussion instruments sound restrained at just the right level and do not get tiresome. This makes for a pleasant listening experience. To sum up, one can expect superb all-round performance from these drivers. They have fast response and everything about these drivers exude quality and balance. As with other good drivers, any poorly recorded/engineered album end up sounding bad. They say, first impression is a lasting one and it’s true in this case also. I simply can’t get enough out of these drivers!
Before I forget, my initial listening comprised some Jazz, R&B, Soul and solo vocals apart from Indian Classical and Light Classical audio CDs and played through a Dayton Class D amp.
Comparison between two excellent drivers is always difficult and it’s no different here. I don’t have any instruments for measuring the differences so I relied on my ears. The Frugel-Horn Lites were initially designed with the Fostex FF85WK drivers in mind and hence they will remain the yardstick for driver comparisons. Both the FF85WK and Alpair 5.2 drivers stand out with their own characteristics and features. They sound smooth and even through the frequency range. However, the Alpairs have better bass extension and over-all sound warm and laid-back, much like what I heard with the TB W3-2141 drivers, only the former sound better. The FF85WKs are more forward sounding which some may find irksome after listening for a while.
Let me re-cap like this –
Fostex FF85WK – Suitable for serious, detailed and critical listening but not for prolonged periods.
MA Alpair 5.2 – Put on some good music and relax with some refreshments and your favourite libation. Prepare for an enjoyable session of listening!
Thanks chrisb, zman01.
You gents have worked a lot with Mark Audio drivers and have long experience. There's one aspect about the Alpair 5.2s that I'm curious to know.
As you know that the Alpair 5.2s are free to air, single suspension drivers and that they have no spiders. So do we need to break-in these drivers for as long as 200 hours? I felt that they had begun to open up as early the 50/55 hour mark. Any comments?
You gents have worked a lot with Mark Audio drivers and have long experience. There's one aspect about the Alpair 5.2s that I'm curious to know.
As you know that the Alpair 5.2s are free to air, single suspension drivers and that they have no spiders. So do we need to break-in these drivers for as long as 200 hours? I felt that they had begun to open up as early the 50/55 hour mark. Any comments?
Hi Pepe
Sorry for late answer, I´ve been out of hobbies due to job and city changes.
To me, FH lite is better than Tabaq in most aspects. The only downside is complex woodwork.
First, it´s lower and narrower, looks much smaller than Tabaq. Designed to work against rear wall, then gets almost no space into the room. Very woman-friendly
And I think it sounds better, clean and open, very wide. The speaker is at ear heigth when you seat in a sofa. FH is a bass horn, no need to BSC.
I've not tryied Faital FE22 on FH, but it should work (not very different to Fostex FF85wk). If you are interested, I could do a test for you. Please tell.
Víctor
Ps: Pepe is a pet form of the Spanish name José. ¿Hablas español?
Sorry for late answer, I´ve been out of hobbies due to job and city changes.
To me, FH lite is better than Tabaq in most aspects. The only downside is complex woodwork.
First, it´s lower and narrower, looks much smaller than Tabaq. Designed to work against rear wall, then gets almost no space into the room. Very woman-friendly
And I think it sounds better, clean and open, very wide. The speaker is at ear heigth when you seat in a sofa. FH is a bass horn, no need to BSC.
I've not tryied Faital FE22 on FH, but it should work (not very different to Fostex FF85wk). If you are interested, I could do a test for you. Please tell.
Víctor
Ps: Pepe is a pet form of the Spanish name José. ¿Hablas español?
Hi Pepe
Sorry for late answer, I´ve been out of hobbies due to job and city changes.
To me, FH lite is better than Tabaq in most aspects. The only downside is complex woodwork.
First, it´s lower and narrower, looks much smaller than Tabaq. Designed to work against rear wall, then gets almost no space into the room. Very woman-friendly
And I think it sounds better, clean and open, very wide. The speaker is at ear heigth when you seat in a sofa. FH is a bass horn, no need to BSC.
I've not tryied Faital FE22 on FH, but it should work (not very different to Fostex FF85wk). If you are interested, I could do a test for you. Please tell.
Víctor
Ps: Pepe is a pet form of the Spanish name José. ¿Hablas español?
Thank you Victor for explaining the differences. I just started an amp build so FH will have to wait a bit. But I will need speakers for a small HT system soon.
I used to live in Spain (Madrid and a Altea) and after that Bs As, Argentina. So I do speak some Spanish.
zia - I've probably been a bit cloistered in the range of FR drivers of all sizes I've used over the past decade or so, and haven't tasted many of the flavors described in these fora - sometimes due to lack of convenient supply chain. In any case, the only three drivers I've heard in the FH Lite have been the FF85WK, A5.2 and a pair of TangBands that were an OEM prototype for an unknown major player.
While the other two definitely have their qualities, I'd have to say that I prefer the Alpair 5.2 in this enclosure.
While the other two definitely have their qualities, I'd have to say that I prefer the Alpair 5.2 in this enclosure.