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Old 16th October 2006, 10:54 AM   #11
tmyr is offline tmyr  Greece
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... and some technical specs ..

radiation opening is 16cm x 48cm, wire diameter is 1,7mm, wire center to next wire center is 5mm, total 32 wires per side,
actually its 15m single wire woven through the frame holes,
tensioning the wires bowed the frames which gave additional tension upon assembly bolting the two frames together.
film is graphite coated with pencil powder and rubbed with paper towel etc etc and super glued on other side to 3mm thick plexiglass frame/spacer, film to wire dist.: 3-1,7=1,3mm
the hv sirquit is the simplest possible a 220 to 110v transformer
fused at 100mA with 32 caps/diodes, at first it sicked the film to the stator and i thought i used too much hv lader but after some time it did it less and less and now its ok and very very quaite at idle..
the film i used is from toy wrapping and is thin enough for my understanding... heat treated for tension.. it all worked
wire pvc insulation is the safest and economical solution, just more work for assembly but great looks also, i susspect better acoustical transparancy .. ah and a consideration for fixing them wires at one place, glue is wonderfull ..
a 4ohm 20w in series resistor is used for conditioning the load to the amp as it went once into protection playing some highs..
oddly no change in sound with res on or off on trials..
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Old 16th October 2006, 02:10 PM   #12
tmyr is offline tmyr  Greece
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.. naturaly more tests must&will be conducted ..

sensitivity is low say about 83~84db .. it needs trice
the power to sing as a magnetodynamic spkr
without bass to hit stators it can get very loud?
i guess i built a mid-highs panel were u can hear 20~20khz at close range & low levels
i do have more to learn and hope did not exadurate..
but i was stuned from what came out so ill do it again..
only better....
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Old 25th October 2006, 12:49 AM   #13
v-bro is offline v-bro  Netherlands
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NICE!!

I'm collecting info on building ESLs myself.
Pardon me asking some questions...
but:
Does it attract a lot of dust? I've heard it depends on pos or neg charging, my QUAD ESL-57 panels do attract lots of dust...

They sound very good though, they do have 2 extra membranes (front and back) to keep the dust away from the charged middle membrane. I only fear this will not sound as lightening fast as an ESL can be...
So can they be charged differently, or can I encorporate this idea in an other DIY project?

What toroid did you use as an audio transformer?

Did you use modelplane mylar? Investigating has lead me only to far too thick quality...I've found the right stuff very cheap over here:
http://esl.hifi.nl/materialen.htm
They sell different qualities for 3 to 3.50 EUR per meter!
And have lots of other ESL goodies...
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Old 25th October 2006, 07:15 PM   #14
tmyr is offline tmyr  Greece
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hi v-bro..

i dont know about dust yet as its about a week i'm testing it..
it doesn't seem to attract any so far...

the sound is very clear from my prototype except for a bass note
that plays too loud wich to my understanding is at the membranes resonating point.. like a drum streched-tuned to a note..

i dont know much about QUADS .. only what i read,
everybody speaks the best about them so i guess they are what THEY say... i myself can only imagine how they sound.

the toroids are standart 220v with 15-0-15 and 7v outputs 30w
for some kind of power supply .. i found them in a drawer at work
i used the 7v sides in parralell as primary to amp and the 220v sides in series for secondary to stators center taped with the HV+ ... and HV- to membrane
they sound very good... i find double toroid topology very effective
and cheap..
i will try some iron trannys and other ideas i have at a later stage to see better what goes on in them esl's and how to improve performance..

film is thermo-shrinking used for wraping goods.. (i.e cigarete box plastic wrapping) the box i took a meter sayed 15 micron plastic heat shrinking film 32cm x 1500m ..not much more
i read the thiner the better but this one charms my ears..
i'll have to use the 6 micron stuff to see (hear) the difference..
modelplanes use thick skin.. i didnt know it was mylar
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Old 25th October 2006, 10:37 PM   #15
v-bro is offline v-bro  Netherlands
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Thanks for the response, your project is really ULTRA!

I read that as a step-up tranformer you can also use four 100 volt-speaker transformers, look here:
http://sound.westhost.com/project1053.htm
This is the 3rd page of this link:
http://sound.westhost.com/project105.htm

My Esl-57's used to have large bass-panels on each side, they were fed with 6Kv! My step-up and supply still have the circuitry to connect them.....

I must say I still am impressed by the sound reproduction quality of my system every day.
They sound like heaven really, but they're from 1958 and I guess technology has moved on and there's room for improvement. I don't have much experience with others in my listening room, but have heard lots of different ones at shows (I used to work for a hifi shop for a couple of years). Have some experience with QUAD ESL-63 but liked my older ESL-57's better...

I've seen commercial panels literally explode once on a fair. (don't know the brand, they were first introduced. My collegue handed them a cd on their request with classical music. He warned them the intro was very silent and the music would follow very explosively. They said their system would handle it and than BOOM! Then nothing...... )

But didn't think much of many commercial ESLs especially their bass qualities. That's why I would like to build them myself one day, knowing exactly how I want them to sound. And want them full-range preferably. Want to DIY as much as possible on them and try to keep cost down as much as possible, that IS still the sport isn't it?

And that's why I like your ESL so much!

I also understood that some tube amps can be connected directly to an ESL without the output tranny of the tube amp and the step-up tranny of the ESL. (some tube amps deliver high voltage audio signal straight from the tubes, normally a tranny is needed to step it down for dynamic speakers..)

My guess is this would save a lot on losses!

Any ESL experts on this site or anybody who can point out the BEST way to build them? Best parts? Any good tweaks? Any links to...?

Thanks in advance...
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Old 26th October 2006, 09:41 AM   #16
tmyr is offline tmyr  Greece
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... i find that i realy love this sport and have lots of fun making things out of nothing.. or as i said before out of garbage and leftovers..
the problem is that u cant always find same stuff for the pair.. damn we live in a stereo era..
i'm planing for next experiment to drive the panel directly from tubes .. which a bit tricky and bit dangerous .. high voltage jumps
like frog .. and are limitations to overcome .. u dont see this commercialy so theres a safety thing here .. when i do it i'll let u know.

..i bet the panels u saw explode were built with perforated sheet stators and membrane cot fire from big arcs .. should use auto-extinguisher system .. some people try to sell before they test what their maschinery can make happen..
.. i'm thinking ideas to make mine as effective and safe as possible but need time to experiment ...

..i say..
do try to make one ..
it is easy to find matterials..
read what they write & choose how to..
u can use simple theory and then complicate..
do not haste, go step by step and review often..
if u think a step for a day or 2 maybe u wont go back a step..

there is lots of info on the net about esl's ... read all about them
..u will know better were u can go and how to get there.
with this info u can design it yourself to your matterials and delight..
it so easy it will have to work.. regarding some logic parameters
and its the best way to produce electronicaly amplified sound..

...one way! all frequencies! whith the moving mass of a tweeter's silk dome!...

i bet no magnets coils and cones can do that good.. only ribbons but very harder to make and less full range ..i think .
.seems easy bet to win.

various transformers can be used in various setups and they work.. sound comes out.. quality of sound is optional but usualy exists .. the best combination is out there somewhere..
but u have to have a best set of ears to find it. my medium quality
ears are happy with this prototype result.
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Old 26th October 2006, 10:06 AM   #17
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Default Graphite in a can

Hey all

I don't know how useful this would be as I've developed a fear of HV in the years since I turned 18 but you can buy spray cans of graphite which could posibly be used to coat membranes.

ignore me if its a stupid idea, I might grow some balls soon and have a go myself, you never know...

Heres the Link

keep up the work that keeps me entertained at work!

Nick.
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Old 26th October 2006, 01:37 PM   #18
tmyr is offline tmyr  Greece
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... mentioning the graphite spray i do have problems with the second panel graphite coating...
cannot replicate same results...
i was very lucky with the 1st panel coating ..
the 2nd one leaks charge ,, makes hissing sound/noise ???
i guess i used to much graph.. this time
first attempt coating 2nd panel with less graph. didnot work ok
results were low level & distorted output at max vol, no fun at all,
no change with HV on or off... (???big leak or what???)
i'm only happy because it didnt happen at 1st panel and was not dissapointed..
i think coating is important and must be replicated easy + succesfully ... graph is for free (pencil) but cannot be sure of outcome.
.. so i searched for spray..
"graphite 33" is to conductive and probably would allow charge migration..
there is a stuff "antistatik 100" is called wich they say it gives 2*10e6 ohms for about a week and climbs to 46*10e6 ohms 83 days later.. thats what the broschoure says ..
i must check if its ok ...
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Old 26th October 2006, 11:54 PM   #19
v-bro is offline v-bro  Netherlands
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Default Re: Graphite in a can

Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy_Git
Hey all

I don't know how useful this would be as I've developed a fear of HV in the years since I turned 18 but you can buy spray cans of graphite which could posibly be used to coat membranes.

ignore me if its a stupid idea, I might grow some balls soon and have a go myself, you never know...

Heres the Link

keep up the work that keeps me entertained at work!

Nick.

There's a really great site in Dutch language where they describe ALL the kinds of coating there are..http://esl.hifi.nl/membraan.htm

They say you should use "plastic 70" spray on top of "graphite 33" to prevent sparks and corona effects.

From all the kinds of alu or gold covered metal oxide green soap and methylcellulose salt or whatever peanutbutter rust or NAME IT coating method this would be the best and most durable...

One guy says you can use "graphite 33" and use 50% thinner, Both guys say you'd better use an airbrush tool instead of straight from the spraycan..Even a single-action model-hobby spraygun works fine..
And it seems you can best polish the surface to stabilize the graphite layer...
Keep an ohms meter on the surface to keep the resistance above 10Mohm/M. Spray several thin layers...

They're the same dudes that sell polyesther-film in really thin qualities from 3 EUR./meter upto 3.50 EUR./meter.

Tmyr:
Maybe you can try this to get perfectly matched membranes, but keep in mind it can take long break-in periods for ESLs to judge, my ESLs sometimes take a week to "recover" after I've pulled the plugs when I am away from home for a longer while....
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Old 27th October 2006, 09:45 PM   #20
v-bro is offline v-bro  Netherlands
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Tube amp and electrostatic speakers.
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