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Old 15th November 2006, 11:17 PM   #101
maxro is offline maxro  Canada
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What an incredibly informative thread.

I just picked up an unused Brother PC-401 fax printing cartridge at the local thrift store for $2. At 47 Metres long, there should be plenty to play with.

I measured it on my DMM at roughly 1 Megohm/ cm probe spacing. Is this too much resistance?

For those interested, the box lists the ingredients:

Polyethylene terephthalate
Paraffin wax
Microcrystalline wax
Carbon black
Ester wax
Ethylene vinyl acetate copolymer

Now, that first one might be the plastic part of the cartridge, I'm not a chemist.

I don't know when/ if I'll ever get around to building an ESL. But, for two bucks, I could't pass it up.

Max
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Old 16th November 2006, 12:38 AM   #102
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Default one meg ohm will work...

I'll take one last shot at this (I promiss). Gigen how much time it takes for the average DIYer to decide and prepare to build his own ESL speakers yet alone construct it to satisfaction why would you consider using less than the best available materials available? Not many DIYers have the desire or energy to build more than one such set if successful.
The idea behind forums like this is to provide assistance and a fast learning curve for those who don't have the time to reinvent the wheel but are prepared to give a reasonable try to see if they can build a set of their own stats. If you search you will find that most things have been tried and those that work are passed on and the duds dropped.
This idea while not fully in the dud pile should be there. Yes the film will work and yes you might find it cheap. How are you ever going to know what kind of a deal you got when every manufacturer of these things use different materials?
If you consider your time worth $10.00 an hour I think it would be a fair estimate to say most DIYers have spent at least what it costs to buy first class materials just in reading and thinking. So save up the $75-100.00 to buy it and have at it. That way if your project works out you will not be left wonder how much better it could sound if you had used good materials to begin with. If you have the time and enjoy the doing part of things and work fast then none of this matters. If not do it right do it once. Regards Moray James.
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Old 16th November 2006, 02:30 AM   #103
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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Default Re: one meg ohm will work...

Quote:
Originally posted by moray james
I'll take one last shot at this (I promiss). Gigen how much time it takes for the average DIYer to decide and prepare to build his own ESL speakers yet alone construct it to satisfaction why would you consider using less than the best available materials available?....

AMEN !!!!

building ESL = as best sounding as possible

so there is no point in trying the "cheap" route

BUY WHAT IT NEEDS to work the best possible!

There should be no ( not much neway ) compromises on the sound performance when building an ESL

just as with a Race car !!
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Old 16th November 2006, 03:29 AM   #104
maxro is offline maxro  Canada
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What if it turned out that the cheapest readily available material also happened to be one of the best? I'm not saying that this fax film is, but just entertain the notion, please.

For the record, I measured the film: 16 layers= 0.0065" (6.5 mil) so divide by 16 and multiply by 25.4 and we get 0.01031875mm, or 10.3 microns for a single thickness.

That's thinner than some commercial offerings, so it can't be that bad.

Perhaps the nay-sayers are opposed to the opaque film because it results in a lack of 'transparancy'.

Max
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Old 16th November 2006, 04:56 AM   #105
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Default Tell me why...

no modern day ESL manufacturer that I can think of that use anything but tensilized polyester diaphragms?
Ok your PE film is fairly thin but not thin enough (twice as thick as you should be considering 6 micron or thinner) but it does not have the strength or stretch caracteristics of tensilized polyester. If you stretch this material it will loose tension over time.
This has nothig to do with "na saying" anything. I already said that the film would work. It just won't work anywhere near as well as the polyester film discribed. Personally I don't care about (visual) transparency I perfer opaque as it blocks light from behind the speaker.
You have ignored most all of my arguement given, that is to get the best results possible the first time around. I get the impression that you are taking this personally somehow. So ok you can use this material and build a set of working panels and then you can build another set (with 6 micron polyester) to prove to yourself that the first set is good enough for you. That way when the first set stretches and looses efficiency you will have a back up set to use.
This is all about using the right materials to get the job done so twenty or thirty years from now your first pair of ESL's will still be working as well as new. If you have almost no money or you just don't care use what you have at hand to build your panels. There is nothing wrong with that it works and you can enjoy it alot. But if you have already invested many hours of reading and searching ESL's then do the project justice and get the right stuff and build yourself a first class pair of ESL's. Best regards Moray James.
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Old 16th November 2006, 04:57 AM   #106
v-bro is offline v-bro  Netherlands
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Default Only polyesther please....

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to discover new materials. But I'm fearfull that people do choose wrong material, so let's not drift that way...

For example -as can be read in the ESL club link- polyethylene (PE) is to weak for usage as membrane. This plastic is very common for carrying bags. Make sure you at least use polyesther, if there do exist any fax rolls made from polyesther with a layer of ink with the right conductivity it can be interesting.

Everybody should know that all kinds of plastics there exist have been tried, the bottleneck is more to get the right coating....
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Old 16th November 2006, 05:27 AM   #107
maxro is offline maxro  Canada
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Default Re: Tell me why...

Quote:
Originally posted by moray james
no modern day ESL manufacturer that I can think of that use anything but tensilized polyester diaphragms?
Ok your PE film is fairly thin but not thin enough (twice as thick as you should be considering 6 micron or thinner) but it does not have the strength or stretch caracteristics of tensilized polyester. If you stretch this material it will loose tension over time.
Okay, that's useful information. Not being a chemist, I was not aware of these materials' properties.

Quote:
I get the impression that you are taking this personally somehow.
Not at all, and I hope neither are you. I was just playing a little devil's advocate without a full deck of cards.

Quote:
But if you have already invested many hours of reading and searching ESL's then do the project justice and get the right stuff and build yourself a first class pair of ESL's.
Well, I haven't invested many hours just yet. I've only been toying with the idea. So far, I know just enough to get myself into trouble, or so it would seem.

Max
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Old 16th November 2006, 07:35 AM   #108
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Default Re: Only polyesther please....

Quote:
Originally posted by v-bro

Everybody should know that all kinds of plastics there exist have been tried, the bottleneck is more to get the right coating....
The problem of the required materials starts with the question: 'What do you want?'
For example, if we are discussing coatings, do you want it to be transparant?, humidity independent?, low mass? Or do you just want to get some sound out of your ESLs?

There is no bottleneck here; you can get whatever you want.
Ranging from an egg on clingfilm after urinating on it to the EC-coating!
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Old 16th November 2006, 07:41 AM   #109
maxro is offline maxro  Canada
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Default Re: Re: Only polyesther please....

Quote:
Originally posted by MJ Dijkstra
There is no bottleneck here; you can get whatever you want.
Ranging from an egg on clingfilm after urinating on it to the EC-coating!
I bet that would smell even better than it would sound.

Max
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Old 16th November 2006, 07:44 AM   #110
EdwinR3 is offline EdwinR3  Belgium
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Default fax rol

according to the info as mentioned by maxro,
the faxrol is made of polyethylene teraphtalate (PET).

This is not PE film but the same material as Mylar, Hostaphan e.a.
Whether it is tensilised or not is unsure. I have never understood what this means or what difference it makes, since the production of PET film requires stretching in both directions. It should
mean a pretensioned film, that requires less stretching to attain a
certain tension which is useful for heath shrinking.
If you tension mechanically, you should be able to attain the same tension by stretching a bit more.

I agree with Moray that the resistance is on the high side, (not sure
whether the measurements done are after heath treating the coating).

So it's probably not the ultimate film/coating combination, but I
think it's very interesting for doing first tests and prototypes.
For the moment I used a 8 micron PE film called Winwrap Plus (packaging film) for my tests to spare my Mylar till i'm convinced I corrected all (or most) of my errors.
With this film I was testing if distributed resonance can be achieved (it does). I also have discovered that black rubber is unsuited for spacers, because its far to conducting and my charging leaks away. So I'm glad I used the cheap film in stead of genuine Mylar (the winwrap plus was send to me for free by the distributer for doing tests).

Regards,

Edwin Renders
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