Enough is enough!! RIBBON VS ESL VS MANGER VS REST - > WICH IS THE BEST!
i can't stop reading about everybody saying that
THIS method or THIS construction
( should i use contraption
)
is better than this other ...
everybody talks about what they hear,
what they feel ..
and this is usually totally biased, subjectif or both at the same time ..
I WANT FACTS!!!!
Do we have hard facts like measurements of all those kind of drivers to actually determine WICH makes the best reproduction of the source ???
Was there ever a REAL scientific comparison of the best of each category ?
(or the best affordable of each ... )
We could also determine a list of the specific requried measurements to be able to compare each ...
i'll start with the easiest
(as my humble level of knowledge is really low.. )
- Distortion ( vs source signal ? )
Can we at least determine a winning technology ?
i guess that measurements are the only way to seriously compare all the different technologies ..
i am probably missing something here!
let's hope that you guys get the point of my quest..
I hope that this
i can't stop reading about everybody saying that
THIS method or THIS construction
( should i use contraption
)is better than this other ...
everybody talks about what they hear,
what they feel ..
and this is usually totally biased, subjectif or both at the same time ..
I WANT FACTS!!!!
Do we have hard facts like measurements of all those kind of drivers to actually determine WICH makes the best reproduction of the source ???
Was there ever a REAL scientific comparison of the best of each category ?
(or the best affordable of each ... )
We could also determine a list of the specific requried measurements to be able to compare each ...
i'll start with the easiest
(as my humble level of knowledge is really low.. )
- Distortion ( vs source signal ? )
Can we at least determine a winning technology ?
i guess that measurements are the only way to seriously compare all the different technologies ..
i am probably missing something here!
let's hope that you guys get the point of my quest..
I hope that this
depends...
this is one of those "swings and round abouts" kind of questions. It all depends on what you want to do and how you want it done. Simple!? Yes you can take most any of the technologies you mentioned and make it do a great job at what you want it to as long as you are prepared to spend the time and money. They all have pro's and con's. Go listen to the ones that interest you and even the ones that don't (you may be surprised) by what you hear. Then decide what the heck it is you want and go after it and see if you (or anyone else has done it or come close). Decide what you are prepared to invest and have at it.
What's the best? Who knows, who is the best artist? Who makes the best wine or camera? It all boils down to what spins your crank. If you really want a simple answer look at the market place. Lots of people (some of them really smart) all trying to make a living building speakers. Of all the technology out there they have to decide what will get them the closest to "the best' for the least. So you tell me what are more designers playing with? Cones and domes and you can complain all you like but some of the very best speakers out there today are just that so go figure. Regards Moray James.
this is one of those "swings and round abouts" kind of questions. It all depends on what you want to do and how you want it done. Simple!? Yes you can take most any of the technologies you mentioned and make it do a great job at what you want it to as long as you are prepared to spend the time and money. They all have pro's and con's. Go listen to the ones that interest you and even the ones that don't (you may be surprised) by what you hear. Then decide what the heck it is you want and go after it and see if you (or anyone else has done it or come close). Decide what you are prepared to invest and have at it.
What's the best? Who knows, who is the best artist? Who makes the best wine or camera? It all boils down to what spins your crank. If you really want a simple answer look at the market place. Lots of people (some of them really smart) all trying to make a living building speakers. Of all the technology out there they have to decide what will get them the closest to "the best' for the least. So you tell me what are more designers playing with? Cones and domes and you can complain all you like but some of the very best speakers out there today are just that so go figure. Regards Moray James.
well there you go...
what data and for what parameters? This thing is such an apples and oranges deal. Choose the things that mater most to you and then have a look see. I will say though that if low distortion is at the top of your list that you need look no further than the highest efficiency drivers that you can find. Klipsch said it some time ago "the higher the efficiency the lower the distortion". So Pro you go a searching. Have fun looking. Regards Moray James.
what data and for what parameters? This thing is such an apples and oranges deal. Choose the things that mater most to you and then have a look see. I will say though that if low distortion is at the top of your list that you need look no further than the highest efficiency drivers that you can find. Klipsch said it some time ago "the higher the efficiency the lower the distortion". So Pro you go a searching. Have fun looking. Regards Moray James.
ok Moray,thanks for the advice,
i didn't know that higher efficiency equaled to lower distortion
( is there a mechanical reason for that?, or is it only because we will be drivnig them with less power for the same output ? )
I wasn't planning this thread for my personal taste,
but more for a general audience.
I am sure that alot of us with less knowledge than a few gurus ( such as u ) are interested in a direct scientifical analysis of difference between each tech...
i know that hearing is really subjective
but we all use frequency response everyday for comparaison/analysis and it is not a factor of natural discernment ( i hope this sentence makes any sense in english ahha )
i didn't know that higher efficiency equaled to lower distortion
( is there a mechanical reason for that?, or is it only because we will be drivnig them with less power for the same output ? )
I wasn't planning this thread for my personal taste,
but more for a general audience.
I am sure that alot of us with less knowledge than a few gurus ( such as u
) are interested in a direct scientifical analysis of difference between each tech...i know that hearing is really subjective
but we all use frequency response everyday for comparaison/analysis and it is not a factor of natural discernment ( i hope this sentence makes any sense in english
ahha )
Re: well there you go...
Klipsch was wrong While generally a worthwhile rule of thumb (high efficiency does mean less power required, and often horns or larger radiators than lower efficiency, both of which lead to reduced distortion) there are other factors at play. The Seas Excel are very good in terms of distortion, but don't have "high efficiency" by my standards (93dB would be the absolute bottom cutoff for modestly high efficiency, IMO).
But I'm all for using large pro stuff
moray james said:
Klipsch was wrong
While generally a worthwhile rule of thumb (high efficiency does mean less power required, and often horns or larger radiators than lower efficiency, both of which lead to reduced distortion) there are other factors at play. The Seas Excel are very good in terms of distortion, but don't have "high efficiency" by my standards (93dB would be the absolute bottom cutoff for modestly high efficiency, IMO).But I'm all for using large pro stuff
I may stand corrected but I'am not sure
I thought klipsch had been proved correct? In any event the less that a driver has to move to make a given level the more linear it will be and so the less distortion. Top quality pro drivers have outstanding specs that most hi end audio speakers only dream of. Pounding woofers with miles of travel usually just mean a lot more distortion. Watch a 15 inch bass driver in a Karlson cabinet some time playing so youd you can barely hear the person next to you scream and look at the driver movement, maybe 1/4 inch on just the peaks for the most part it hardly looks like it is moving at all. Something to be said for a good air impedance match. Electrostats can do the same kind of thing with incredible jump factor when everything is set right and you dont ask them to make a lot of bass. I think you have to build a system where you pick the right driver/technology to to the job. Have a good look at pro systems, 4-5 way's are the norm (for good reasons) did you ever consider what would happen to most audiophile speakers if you plugged a Fender Precission into them and played? Remember that an electric bass only drops down to about 41 Hz. So how can we consider a system as audiophile grade when it cannot even reproduce an electric bass guitar (never mind a drum kit)? Most audiophiles scoff at such a suggestion and say that that is not necessary in a livingroom but that is just a bunch of you know what. Even playing a bass at livingroom levels on a home hi fi is likely to fry the speakers (have seen that more than once). So you have to accept the fact that a 10 inch woofer and a 1 inch tweeter are not going to take you to the land of true fidelity any time soon. You will need a lot more gear and your system will end up looking in many ways a lot more like a pro rig because frankly that's what it takes to get the job done. Regards Moray James.
I thought klipsch had been proved correct? In any event the less that a driver has to move to make a given level the more linear it will be and so the less distortion. Top quality pro drivers have outstanding specs that most hi end audio speakers only dream of. Pounding woofers with miles of travel usually just mean a lot more distortion. Watch a 15 inch bass driver in a Karlson cabinet some time playing so youd you can barely hear the person next to you scream and look at the driver movement, maybe 1/4 inch on just the peaks for the most part it hardly looks like it is moving at all. Something to be said for a good air impedance match. Electrostats can do the same kind of thing with incredible jump factor when everything is set right and you dont ask them to make a lot of bass. I think you have to build a system where you pick the right driver/technology to to the job. Have a good look at pro systems, 4-5 way's are the norm (for good reasons) did you ever consider what would happen to most audiophile speakers if you plugged a Fender Precission into them and played? Remember that an electric bass only drops down to about 41 Hz. So how can we consider a system as audiophile grade when it cannot even reproduce an electric bass guitar (never mind a drum kit)? Most audiophiles scoff at such a suggestion and say that that is not necessary in a livingroom but that is just a bunch of you know what. Even playing a bass at livingroom levels on a home hi fi is likely to fry the speakers (have seen that more than once). So you have to accept the fact that a 10 inch woofer and a 1 inch tweeter are not going to take you to the land of true fidelity any time soon. You will need a lot more gear and your system will end up looking in many ways a lot more like a pro rig because frankly that's what it takes to get the job done. Regards Moray James.
Hi,
what good for is"objective" data of measurements, if not executed in your specific listening room ??
You could find the best speaker measured ever and might be disappointed having it in your room.
What i want to say is, that beside low distortions...... radiation of sound is more important. especially point sources, which are considered to be perfect can sound lousy in rooms,because they might cause horrible issues with wall reflections. On the other hand a line source show funny measurements under perfect room conditions, but often sound best in averaged living rooms.
So if you want the best speaker,first ask yourself some questions:
1. where do i sit and where are the speakers to be positioned
2. do i want to add some damping elements into my room
3. at which soundlevel do i hear
4. what is the listening distance
.......
And even you might find two speakers with identical perfect measurements, they will sound different !!
Regards, Capaciti
what good for is"objective" data of measurements, if not executed in your specific listening room ??
You could find the best speaker measured ever and might be disappointed having it in your room.
What i want to say is, that beside low distortions...... radiation of sound is more important. especially point sources, which are considered to be perfect can sound lousy in rooms,because they might cause horrible issues with wall reflections. On the other hand a line source show funny measurements under perfect room conditions, but often sound best in averaged living rooms.
So if you want the best speaker,first ask yourself some questions:
1. where do i sit and where are the speakers to be positioned
2. do i want to add some damping elements into my room
3. at which soundlevel do i hear
4. what is the listening distance
.......
And even you might find two speakers with identical perfect measurements, they will sound different !!
Regards, Capaciti
i know that..we are discussing all that
allllll day long
BUT WHAT ABOUT REAL DATAS!!
i only want to compare the different technologies in different key attributes of a driver set
No need for room stuff
we are looking here at only measurements in anechoic
or whatever other type of room that driver makers use to test them when they are prototyping/testing
forget about room interaction
that doesn't have anything to do with the driver itself
can anyone gather/show comparable measurements of different technologies?
Let's start with MANGER
is there any data other than the manufacturer's for this driver ??
how does it compare to other technologies?
VS ESL ? VS RIBBONS ..
allllll day long
BUT WHAT ABOUT REAL DATAS!!
i only want to compare the different technologies in different key attributes of a driver set
No need for room stuff
we are looking here at only measurements in anechoic
or whatever other type of room that driver makers use to test them when they are prototyping/testing
forget about room interaction
that doesn't have anything to do with the driver itself
can anyone gather/show comparable measurements of different technologies?
Let's start with MANGER
is there any data other than the manufacturer's for this driver ??
how does it compare to other technologies?
VS ESL ? VS RIBBONS ..
then what do we have to compare?
Is there any way to compare drivers at all ?
It doesn't look like, if i listen to what you are all sayin ..
So we are reproducing a source, with a certain fidelity,
but we can't measure that, and we can't compare
much because it is all sooooo different ..
Even though a FWD 4 banger car is quite different than a RWD V8 rod, you can still compare them on acceleration or handling ...
Is there any way to compare drivers at all ?
It doesn't look like, if i listen to what you are all sayin ..
So we are reproducing a source, with a certain fidelity,
but we can't measure that, and we can't compare
much because it is all sooooo different ..
Even though a FWD 4 banger car is quite different than a RWD V8 rod, you can still compare them on acceleration or handling ...
A bit of an issue is that a loudspeaker doesn't really HAVE a frequency response -- it has zillions of them!
A car's acceleration can be measured so you can get a meaningful number. An amplifier has one input and one output between which response can be measured absolutely. But a loudspeaker has an infinite number of outputs, all depending where in space you measure from (variations in left, right, up, down, and how far away). There is no single "output port".
So, suppose you decide to measure from some fixed distance (say 1 meter) in some fixed direction (say "on-axis"), then can you decide whether a speaker is better in terms of frequency response? Maybe, but only for that listening position... and only for listeners in an anechoic chamber! Because, like it or not, the speaker radiates in all directions, and with different responses in each direction, and that radiation bounces around the room and will come back to the listener, and that reflected sound will most definitely have a huge effect on the sound. So the speaker's actually-used response will also differ depending on what room it is in, and where it is in that room, and where the listener is seated. A "perfect speaker" would have to somehow remove the reflections that the room adds.
Add into the mix distortion (which varies with both frequency and with drive level, and sometimes with how long the driver has been playing and how loudly), efficiency, load impedance presented to the amplifier, and max SPL capability. What do you want to proclaim the "most important" characteristic? That would probably depend on what is most critical to your ears and to the rest of your setup. Measurements can tell you a lot, but you'll probably still have to listen to a speaker to make the final call on it.
A car's acceleration can be measured so you can get a meaningful number. An amplifier has one input and one output between which response can be measured absolutely. But a loudspeaker has an infinite number of outputs, all depending where in space you measure from (variations in left, right, up, down, and how far away). There is no single "output port".
So, suppose you decide to measure from some fixed distance (say 1 meter) in some fixed direction (say "on-axis"), then can you decide whether a speaker is better in terms of frequency response? Maybe, but only for that listening position... and only for listeners in an anechoic chamber! Because, like it or not, the speaker radiates in all directions, and with different responses in each direction, and that radiation bounces around the room and will come back to the listener, and that reflected sound will most definitely have a huge effect on the sound. So the speaker's actually-used response will also differ depending on what room it is in, and where it is in that room, and where the listener is seated. A "perfect speaker" would have to somehow remove the reflections that the room adds.
Add into the mix distortion (which varies with both frequency and with drive level, and sometimes with how long the driver has been playing and how loudly), efficiency, load impedance presented to the amplifier, and max SPL capability. What do you want to proclaim the "most important" characteristic? That would probably depend on what is most critical to your ears and to the rest of your setup. Measurements can tell you a lot, but you'll probably still have to listen to a speaker to make the final call on it.
Re: Enough is enough!! RIBBON VS ESL VS MANGER VS REST - > WICH IS THE BEST!
Buy/audition the drivers/speakers and listen for yourself. Pick the one you like and claim your prize. This is what I do, I buy samples and
do auditions with human ears, a new concept for many .. lol
Take the easy path, you will be happier.
One loudspeaker design doesn't solve all the needs, you
have to design a loudspeaker optimized to meet specific goals.
Define your goals and then make a list of driver candidates
and do auditions. Pick the lesser of the evils, there is no
perfect driver or loudspeaker.
JinMTVT said:i can't stop reading about everybody saying that
THIS method or THIS construction
( should i use contraption
is better than this other ...
everybody talks about what they hear,
what they feel ..
and this is usually totally biased, subjectif or both at the same time ..
I WANT FACTS!!!!
Do we have hard facts like measurements of all those kind of drivers to actually determine WICH makes the best reproduction of the source ???
Was there ever a REAL scientific comparison of the best of each category ?
(or the best affordable of each ... )
We could also determine a list of the specific requried measurements to be able to compare each ...
i'll start with the easiest
(as my humble level of knowledge is really low.. )
- Distortion ( vs source signal ? )
Can we at least determine a winning technology ?
i guess that measurements are the only way to seriously compare all the different technologies ..
i am probably missing something here!
let's hope that you guys get the point of my quest..
I hope that this
Buy/audition the drivers/speakers and listen for yourself. Pick the one you like and claim your prize. This is what I do, I buy samples and
do auditions with human ears, a new concept for many .. lol
Take the easy path, you will be happier.
One loudspeaker design doesn't solve all the needs, you
have to design a loudspeaker optimized to meet specific goals.
Define your goals and then make a list of driver candidates
and do auditions. Pick the lesser of the evils, there is no
perfect driver or loudspeaker.
GRRRRRRRRRRRR guy c'mon ...
u inderstand and acknkoledge everything you are saying .... this is how it works NORMALLY
that said, I DONT WANNA PLAN MY MOVE ON THIS
i just wanna LEARN a bit more ..
I WANT FACTS!!!!
BRING ON THE GRAPHS!!!
stop going back to the " buy what u like "
that's not the point of my thread ...
i want to learn the different properties of each technology ...
u inderstand and acknkoledge everything you are saying .... this is how it works NORMALLY
that said, I DONT WANNA PLAN MY MOVE ON THIS
i just wanna LEARN a bit more ..
I WANT FACTS!!!!
BRING ON THE GRAPHS!!!
stop going back to the " buy what u like "
that's not the point of my thread ...
i want to learn the different properties of each technology ...
The RAAL ribbon website technology section describes EQUAFIELD as a breakthrough in homogenous magnetic field across the gap. Is this just hype-speak, or some good engineering improvements on the tradition pole piece design? Any ideas on how to model EQUAFIELD?
"EQUAFIELD® technology: The magnetic field in RAAL ribbons is homogenous. Regarding the width of the gap, it is designed to have the same strength at the ribbon edges, as well as at the ribbon middle portion. It reduces the stress at the ribbon foil dramatically. The distortion, too. To get the precisely shaped field, through the gap width and depth, we’ve extensively used the FEM and BEM magnetic circuits analysis software. In order to obtain such a field in real magnetic circuit, very strong NdFeB magnets have been precisely machined, prior to magnetisation, in very special shape. Making the magnetic field homogenous, sacrifices the strength of it, but efficiency should easily be changed for low stress and low linear and nonlinear distortion."
"EQUAFIELD® technology: The magnetic field in RAAL ribbons is homogenous. Regarding the width of the gap, it is designed to have the same strength at the ribbon edges, as well as at the ribbon middle portion. It reduces the stress at the ribbon foil dramatically. The distortion, too. To get the precisely shaped field, through the gap width and depth, we’ve extensively used the FEM and BEM magnetic circuits analysis software. In order to obtain such a field in real magnetic circuit, very strong NdFeB magnets have been precisely machined, prior to magnetisation, in very special shape. Making the magnetic field homogenous, sacrifices the strength of it, but efficiency should easily be changed for low stress and low linear and nonlinear distortion."
All drivers are flawed, but in different ways. You ask for data, but there are so many ways of measuring that you can only take that as a guide, unless you did the comparative tests yourself in strictly controlled conditions and then know enough to interpret the data in a meaningful way.
With the current state of the art, using any technology, there will never be a ultimate "best driver", but half the fun in this hobby is trying to find the best for you.
With the current state of the art, using any technology, there will never be a ultimate "best driver", but half the fun in this hobby is trying to find the best for you.
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