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Old 4th October 2006, 10:10 PM   #21
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Mars
BRING ON THE GRAPHS!!!

Example.

I made a list of midrange candidates for a project.
I did blind tests with others and scored the results.
I also spent a few months auditioning the drivers with
all sorts of music.

Results:

The driver with the best graphs scored dead last and wasn't
desired at all.

The drivers with the worse graphs won the contest.

You need to spend more time in the garage playing
with drivers to learn how they sound and spend less time
reading about them.

Raw data tells one tale, but won't tell all the tales.

What exactly do you want to do ? I have no idea. Are you researching trying to find the best in the world drivers to build
the best speaker in the world? lol ......
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Old 4th October 2006, 11:28 PM   #22
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Default good example here's another...

years ago my expartner anI took the voice coil from a head phone (3/8" dia) and crazy glued it to the centre of a 8,5x11 inch piece of glass held in a small picture frame (thin foa around the edges). We then jigged up a horizontal strut across the frame to position the pot magnet in place over the VC. This is as lo tech as it gets right? Well as you would expect no bass or mid bass and lo output to speak of either go figure. Play a piano recording on that thing and it messed with your mind. No need to wonder how it measured (like crap) but the sound was astounding. So yes I agree play with the designs that you can resonate with that you have the where with all to manipulate and see what you can do. All the important tweaking of your design can be done by ear. Have some fun and get a handle on the kind of drivers that you like. Otherwise you will spend the rest of your life going in circles following measurements. Regards Moray James.
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Old 5th October 2006, 03:37 AM   #23
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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Location: MTL
i am 100% with you guys on all that

and I AM already experiencing as much as i can do
( serious time restrictions ..working 80+ hours/week now )

this is what i just came up with this week :

Click the image to open in full size.

will be in infinite baffle ( oversized closet )
3" veravox and a 12" shiva

it just sounds wonderfull compared to my old Fisher prices under em



So there is nothing we can do with graphs ?

i thought that we could at least compare stuff that gets out of the drivers directly ..
like distortion, decay ...



i am disapointed ...


Can we at least summarize the different pros and cons of each technologies ??
( so that i feel that this thread wasn't for nothing? )
using measurable facts
( nothing after the sound gets out of the drivers = don't even mention room stuff .. it has nothing to do with the driver iteself )
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Old 5th October 2006, 07:45 AM   #24
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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When you search for drivers with perfect measurement values you will end up building 5 or more way systems. Their faults ly in the field of psycho-acoustics (phase distortion, dispersion bottlenecks, time alignment, etc.).

So objective criteria only don`t work.
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Old 5th October 2006, 12:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Their faults ly in the field of psycho-acoustics (phase distortion, dispersion bottlenecks, time alignment, etc.).
Not necessarily ! Minimal phase distortion and good dispersion is also possible with more than three ways but I won't dare to say it would be easy.

Regards

Charles
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Old 5th October 2006, 01:31 PM   #26
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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time aligment is always possible
it only gets more and more complicated...

remove it from ur "excuse"

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Old 5th October 2006, 01:46 PM   #27
badman is offline badman  United States
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Default Re: I may stand corrected but I'am not sure

Quote:
Originally posted by moray james
I thought klipsch had been proved correct? In any event the less that a driver has to move to make a given level the more linear it will be and so the less distortion. Top quality pro drivers have outstanding specs that most hi end audio speakers only dream of. Pounding woofers with miles of travel usually just mean a lot more distortion. Watch a 15 inch bass driver in a Karlson cabinet some time playing so youd you can barely hear the person next to you scream and look at the driver movement, maybe 1/4 inch on just the peaks for the most part it hardly looks like it is moving at all. Something to be said for a good air impedance match. Electrostats can do the same kind of thing with incredible jump factor when everything is set right and you dont ask them to make a lot of bass. I think you have to build a system where you pick the right driver/technology to to the job. Have a good look at pro systems, 4-5 way's are the norm (for good reasons) did you ever consider what would happen to most audiophile speakers if you plugged a Fender Precission into them and played? Remember that an electric bass only drops down to about 41 Hz. So how can we consider a system as audiophile grade when it cannot even reproduce an electric bass guitar (never mind a drum kit)? Most audiophiles scoff at such a suggestion and say that that is not necessary in a livingroom but that is just a bunch of you know what. Even playing a bass at livingroom levels on a home hi fi is likely to fry the speakers (have seen that more than once). So you have to accept the fact that a 10 inch woofer and a 1 inch tweeter are not going to take you to the land of true fidelity any time soon. You will need a lot more gear and your system will end up looking in many ways a lot more like a pro rig because frankly that's what it takes to get the job done. Regards Moray James.

Indeed, but higher efficiency *IN ISOLATION* isn't a pure indicator of distortion, which is what I said. Like I say, I'm all for high surface area radiators and horns and whatnot- but increasing efficiency doesn't necessarily require an increase in surface area, which I attribute to be a big part of a low distortion system. For a very good antiexample- compare a higher efficiency 1" dome (there are plenty in the low-mid 90s) to the Eton AMT tweeter at about 85dB W/M (very low distortion fwiw): much more surface area, and much less efficient. So it can go either way. Efficiency is made easier by big, but big can be a worthy goal in and of itself, carrying with it many of the advantages normally prescribed to high efficiency.

So we agree on what kind of speakers to use (mostly) but my point is that simply raising efficiency does NOT reduce distortion, except when thermal issues come into play, at which point, you're a ninny anyway: if you can see the woofer pumping, don't bother listening
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Old 5th October 2006, 01:55 PM   #28
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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Quote:
...,good dispersion...
this is also not valid
since the use of different devices can probably give the required dispersion for any ( or almost ) drivers

like what Manger are using as exemple ..
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 5th October 2006, 02:54 PM   #29
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by JinMTVT
time aligment is always possible
it only gets more and more complicated...

remove it from ur "excuse"


I believe that time alignment of the early wall reflections plays also a role for imaging.
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Old 5th October 2006, 03:01 PM   #30
JinMTVT is offline JinMTVT  Canada
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probably..

BUT IT DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE DRIVERS :P
( again and again .. )


why is it sooooo hard to stay with the topic
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