Electroactive polymer possibilities

odin84gk · 31st May 2006, 06:54 PM

This is just an introductory question to see if there is anyone in the community that has heard of or worked with Electroactive polymers.

For those who don't know, this is a type of material that reacts "similar" to an esl. If you apply a couple kV to the material, it will shrink, and removing the voltage causes it to go back to its original form. (some can do up to 380% expansion of the materials original size)

If anyone is familiar with this stuff, I would like to start a thread about its possibility of replacing the ESL speaker technology. Otherwise, I won't fill up your forums.

Thanks

poobah · 31st May 2006, 07:25 PM

Do you have some links?

SY · 31st May 2006, 07:35 PM

These materials are finding use as potential artificial muscles. But their response is too slow for audio.

poobah · 31st May 2006, 07:45 PM

Do you know the principal?

SY · 31st May 2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by poobah
Do you know the principal?

Of course. I spent most of my youth in his office.

SY · 31st May 2006, 07:50 PM

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=885

poobah · 31st May 2006, 07:59 PM

Damn... that's like 3 speeling mistakes in as many days...

I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.
I will not argue principles with my principal.

nunayafb · 1st June 2006, 05:13 AM

Quote:

speeling

four

odin84gk · 1st June 2006, 02:35 PM

This stuff is hard to find information about since it is still in its research stage. As far as its responce time, NuSil's CF19-2186 has had a responce time of over 100kHz, so the frequency requirements are there. When you look at electroactive polymers (EAP), only look at the dielectric elastomers (DEAP) since they have the best chance of use. Yes, it is used as an artificial muscle, but I am looking into replaceing the subwoofer with this stuff.

Most of the information that I have was bought from online journals, but I do have a few links to help you out.

Here is a detailed description to show you what an EAP is all about.

To sum it all up, take the diaphragm out of an esl and replace it with a DEAP. Instead of going back and forth, the DEAP will expand and contract depending on the voltage (but keeps the same volume, so contracting on the x-y plane will cause expansion in the z-plane.)

This is the first time that I have looked into ESL's so far, so I am not experianced with it. I need to get a power supply that can provide 5 kV with 400 V ac (or so) at 60 hz (low amperage), but I'm not sure if an ESL driver would be up for it.

So, 2 questions for anyone with a few moments:
1. Where could I get a supply that provides this (i have seen 1.5 kv, but not much more)

2. How would you design this for a subwoofer? OR
If you could take an esl and freely form it to your specifications, what would you do?

I have had a few ideas about #2, ranging from attaching a paper cone to the side of the EAP and let the material act as a driver, to creating the cone AND the base out of the eap, or just using the expanding properties to force the DEAP into a bubble shape (forcing an xy expansion without letting it move in the xy, forcing a bubble in the middle).

If you are willing to help, #1 is my bigger problem at the moment, and any other information is helpful. If you have any questions, i will be willing to answer any and all questions (to the best of my knowledge).

Thanks

Dan

odin84gk · 1st June 2006, 04:33 PM

So I have done a bit more research, and I did find out how to make the 5 kV supply, but I haven't found how to vary this voltage between, say 3 kV and 5 kV. Could this be done by varying the number of windings on the transformer?

I have also looked at ESL's a bit more, and I need to clarify some details. The DEAP does not need a bias voltage on it, and the walls need to have direct contact with the material, usually using a conductive grease. So, instead of needing 3 connections, I only need 2.

31st May 2006, 07:35 PM	#3
SY diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Blog Entries: 1	These materials are finding use as potential artificial muscles. But their response is too slow for audio. __________________ If there's a sucker born every minute, where do the rest of them come from?

31st May 2006, 07:50 PM	#6
SY diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Blog Entries: 1	http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=885 __________________ If there's a sucker born every minute, where do the rest of them come from?

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31st May 2006, 06:54 PM	#1
odin84gk diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2006	Electroactive polymer possibilities This is just an introductory question to see if there is anyone in the community that has heard of or worked with Electroactive polymers. For those who don't know, this is a type of material that reacts "similar" to an esl. If you apply a couple kV to the material, it will shrink, and removing the voltage causes it to go back to its original form. (some can do up to 380% expansion of the materials original size) If anyone is familiar with this stuff, I would like to start a thread about its possibility of replacing the ESL speaker technology. Otherwise, I won't fill up your forums. Thanks

31st May 2006, 07:25 PM	#2
poobah diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2005	Do you have some links?

31st May 2006, 07:45 PM	#4
poobah diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2005	Do you know the principal?

31st May 2006, 07:59 PM	#7
poobah diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2005	Damn... that's like 3 speeling mistakes in as many days... I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal. I will not argue principles with my principal.

1st June 2006, 02:35 PM	#9
odin84gk diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2006	This stuff is hard to find information about since it is still in its research stage. As far as its responce time, NuSil's CF19-2186 has had a responce time of over 100kHz, so the frequency requirements are there. When you look at electroactive polymers (EAP), only look at the dielectric elastomers (DEAP) since they have the best chance of use. Yes, it is used as an artificial muscle, but I am looking into replaceing the subwoofer with this stuff. Most of the information that I have was bought from online journals, but I do have a few links to help you out. Here is a detailed description to show you what an EAP is all about. To sum it all up, take the diaphragm out of an esl and replace it with a DEAP. Instead of going back and forth, the DEAP will expand and contract depending on the voltage (but keeps the same volume, so contracting on the x-y plane will cause expansion in the z-plane.) This is the first time that I have looked into ESL's so far, so I am not experianced with it. I need to get a power supply that can provide 5 kV with 400 V ac (or so) at 60 hz (low amperage), but I'm not sure if an ESL driver would be up for it. So, 2 questions for anyone with a few moments: 1. Where could I get a supply that provides this (i have seen 1.5 kv, but not much more) 2. How would you design this for a subwoofer? OR If you could take an esl and freely form it to your specifications, what would you do? I have had a few ideas about #2, ranging from attaching a paper cone to the side of the EAP and let the material act as a driver, to creating the cone AND the base out of the eap, or just using the expanding properties to force the DEAP into a bubble shape (forcing an xy expansion without letting it move in the xy, forcing a bubble in the middle). If you are willing to help, #1 is my bigger problem at the moment, and any other information is helpful. If you have any questions, i will be willing to answer any and all questions (to the best of my knowledge). Thanks Dan

1st June 2006, 04:33 PM	#10
odin84gk diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2006	So I have done a bit more research, and I did find out how to make the 5 kV supply, but I haven't found how to vary this voltage between, say 3 kV and 5 kV. Could this be done by varying the number of windings on the transformer? I have also looked at ESL's a bit more, and I need to clarify some details. The DEAP does not need a bias voltage on it, and the walls need to have direct contact with the material, usually using a conductive grease. So, instead of needing 3 connections, I only need 2.