Hello Everybody,
I'm not very familiar with ESLs besides a simple explanation of how they work from howstuffworks.com. I am going to listen to a couple of pairs of Martin Logans and was wondering if you all could tell me what to listen for. What makes ESLs better? How can I diffentiate different ESLs from one another. Some of the products I'll be listening to are the Martin Logan Summit, Vantage, and Vista. What should I know before I listen to them? and What should I be listening for? Besideds the different sub options and ESL area/length what other differences are there?
Thanks,
Josh
I'm not very familiar with ESLs besides a simple explanation of how they work from howstuffworks.com. I am going to listen to a couple of pairs of Martin Logans and was wondering if you all could tell me what to listen for. What makes ESLs better? How can I diffentiate different ESLs from one another. Some of the products I'll be listening to are the Martin Logan Summit, Vantage, and Vista. What should I know before I listen to them? and What should I be listening for? Besideds the different sub options and ESL area/length what other differences are there?
Thanks,
Josh
Hi edjosh23,
since you are interested in hybrid ESL (woofer+ESL) the most important is the transition between woofer and ESL. You should listen music with most information in that range (typically 200-400 Hz). Good examples are contrabass, cello and tenor male voices. For my experience a loudly played acoustic guitar, especially the deeper strings will challenge the speakers.
If the dealer will show music preferrable for the ESL only (female voices) forget about it.
You should be able to hear the advantage of a larger panel, providing wider frequency range. Although having the same overall frequency response a larger panel plays more authentic, majestic and fundemental.
Don't go with a passive driven woofer system (vista). It will never follow the speed of the ESL.
capaciti
since you are interested in hybrid ESL (woofer+ESL) the most important is the transition between woofer and ESL. You should listen music with most information in that range (typically 200-400 Hz). Good examples are contrabass, cello and tenor male voices. For my experience a loudly played acoustic guitar, especially the deeper strings will challenge the speakers.
If the dealer will show music preferrable for the ESL only (female voices) forget about it.
You should be able to hear the advantage of a larger panel, providing wider frequency range. Although having the same overall frequency response a larger panel plays more authentic, majestic and fundemental.
Don't go with a passive driven woofer system (vista). It will never follow the speed of the ESL.
capaciti
What the ML's offer that is different from other speakers are the following:
Soundstage: Whether you are 2 inches (literall--try it) or 20 feet from the ESL, the soundstage will only differ slightly. So little in fact that it will appear that the opposite speaker has disappeard as opposed to the speaker you are 2 inches away from over powering you. At 2 inches, most speakers will screech at you in a very directional manner. The ML's will appear to have a soundstage into and behind the speaker itself and the volume level will not rise significantly. Who care about 2 inches-right? Well, imagine what it can do at 10 feet now when you are sitting on your couch.
Transients: Nothing can image a transient better than an ESL. I truly believe this although it is only my opinion. Glass, cymbols, etc., will be created all over your room. Close your eyes and forget the speakers when you demo them. Your in for a surprise. If you can allow yourself to believe that they are not there, they will dissappear.
Aesthetics: Lets face it, you have to live with the speakers you buy, and you might find the ESL's attractive.
Great company: ML has provided me the service you expect to recieve as the CEO of a company. Any problems and you do not have to worry about them standing behind thier product.
A recording I suggest you try for your Demo: Any Dave Matthews Band cd. If you are not familiar with them, get to know the music first. This cd will exemplify the transients as it has many natural instruments along with a male voice.
Also, if you ever look into center channel ESL's...I think that the Theater i is one of the best I have ever heard at any price range! And they are about to release a new one called the stage.
Good luck,
Dominick
PM me if you would like to know more. And visit MLowners.com.
Soundstage: Whether you are 2 inches (literall--try it) or 20 feet from the ESL, the soundstage will only differ slightly. So little in fact that it will appear that the opposite speaker has disappeard as opposed to the speaker you are 2 inches away from over powering you. At 2 inches, most speakers will screech at you in a very directional manner. The ML's will appear to have a soundstage into and behind the speaker itself and the volume level will not rise significantly. Who care about 2 inches-right? Well, imagine what it can do at 10 feet now when you are sitting on your couch.
Transients: Nothing can image a transient better than an ESL. I truly believe this although it is only my opinion. Glass, cymbols, etc., will be created all over your room. Close your eyes and forget the speakers when you demo them. Your in for a surprise. If you can allow yourself to believe that they are not there, they will dissappear.
Aesthetics: Lets face it, you have to live with the speakers you buy, and you might find the ESL's attractive.
Great company: ML has provided me the service you expect to recieve as the CEO of a company. Any problems and you do not have to worry about them standing behind thier product.
A recording I suggest you try for your Demo: Any Dave Matthews Band cd. If you are not familiar with them, get to know the music first. This cd will exemplify the transients as it has many natural instruments along with a male voice.
Also, if you ever look into center channel ESL's...I think that the Theater i is one of the best I have ever heard at any price range! And they are about to release a new one called the stage.
Good luck,
Dominick
PM me if you would like to know more. And visit MLowners.com.
In general ESLs will reproduce what you put into them... in practical terms this means that they tend to be reflective of the amplifier's characteristic to a greater extent than some other speakers might be. One of the reasons is that they are a reactive load - as opposed to resistive - which means that they are difficult to drive in a certain sense. The term reactive means that they look like either a capacitor or an inductor. In this case a capacitor with resistance. Many amplifiers will "change" their waveforms in not so nice ways when presented with a reactive load.
The second reason is that they tend to have lower distortion than many other speakers.
Practically speaking this means that some amps will sound like death on an ESL while others will not. Tube amps, of higher power in general, do exceptionally well on ESLs in subjective terms. Although solid state amps can sound just fine.
ESLs require higher power amps to play to maximum loudness since they are essentially voltage driven devices - almost no current required - and amplifiers that have big voltage swings also are high power amps (unless they were specially built for ESLs). ESLs tend to have lower than average sensitivity (SPL/Wattage/Distance), which also means that higher power amps for more voltage swing are needed.
Be cautious when auditioning these speakers if the amps are different per speaker, and/or if you do not have the opportunity to listen to the same speakers on various amps. Otherwise you won't know what you are actually "hearing".
Accordingly, speaker cables certainly DO have a subjective effect on the overall sound.
You could well find that if you merely purchase the speakers on the basis of an audition that they will sound somewhat different with your gear than they did elsewhere on other gear...
Otoh, ESLs are among the finest speakers you can get...
For auditioning, I'd pick both things that you are familliar with AND thing that are known to be recorded with minimalist high-end techniques so that the resolution limits of the system might be found... There are a number of labels that record this way, Chesky is one example... Dorian is another... Audioquest has some out too.
_-_-bear
PS. if you can swing it, a full range ESL is preferable to a hybrid, imho.
Used is usually ok in ESLs...
The second reason is that they tend to have lower distortion than many other speakers.
Practically speaking this means that some amps will sound like death on an ESL while others will not. Tube amps, of higher power in general, do exceptionally well on ESLs in subjective terms. Although solid state amps can sound just fine.
ESLs require higher power amps to play to maximum loudness since they are essentially voltage driven devices - almost no current required - and amplifiers that have big voltage swings also are high power amps (unless they were specially built for ESLs). ESLs tend to have lower than average sensitivity (SPL/Wattage/Distance), which also means that higher power amps for more voltage swing are needed.
Be cautious when auditioning these speakers if the amps are different per speaker, and/or if you do not have the opportunity to listen to the same speakers on various amps. Otherwise you won't know what you are actually "hearing".
Accordingly, speaker cables certainly DO have a subjective effect on the overall sound.
You could well find that if you merely purchase the speakers on the basis of an audition that they will sound somewhat different with your gear than they did elsewhere on other gear...
Otoh, ESLs are among the finest speakers you can get...
For auditioning, I'd pick both things that you are familliar with AND thing that are known to be recorded with minimalist high-end techniques so that the resolution limits of the system might be found... There are a number of labels that record this way, Chesky is one example... Dorian is another... Audioquest has some out too.
_-_-bear
PS. if you can swing it, a full range ESL is preferable to a hybrid, imho.
Used is usually ok in ESLs...
Capaciti,
Thanks for the advise about xo point. I don't have much cello or contrabass. I do listen to Joshua Redman who uses bass synthesizers. Dominick22 recomended DMB, who I have all of their albums, not all the live stuff though. I listen to Lizz Wright, she has a lower femal voice, if you are familiar with her, would she be a good demo disc?
Dominick22,
Like I said I have lots of DMB. Any albums specifically?
bear,
What do you consider average spl. I find that the MLs have pretty good efficiency, 92db.
Thanks for the explanations about voltage and current ratings.
I will keep in mind that ESLs are more sensitive to different parts of the system.
And more advise, any more tech stuff?
Here is my story
Thanks a lot,
Josh
Thanks for the advise about xo point. I don't have much cello or contrabass. I do listen to Joshua Redman who uses bass synthesizers. Dominick22 recomended DMB, who I have all of their albums, not all the live stuff though. I listen to Lizz Wright, she has a lower femal voice, if you are familiar with her, would she be a good demo disc?
Dominick22,
Like I said I have lots of DMB. Any albums specifically?
bear,
What do you consider average spl. I find that the MLs have pretty good efficiency, 92db.
Thanks for the explanations about voltage and current ratings.
I will keep in mind that ESLs are more sensitive to different parts of the system.
And more advise, any more tech stuff?
Here is my story
Thanks a lot,
Josh
I sincerely doubt that any of these hybrid ESLs get any where near 92dB/1w/1m. More likely wishful thinking on the part of the marketing departments.
Ok, maybe there is *one* peak in the response that hit 92dB when they were testing it!
I wouldn't listen to DMB as a "test" of much, since he records in multi track'd mono - pure stereo, 2 mike recordings of vocal subjects are bound to be more revealing... but you should listen to your favs.
BUT, again, the subjective results are going to vary all over the map depending on the rest of the gear. You can get everything from hard and grainy, thin to smooth and rich depending on what is doing the rest of the signal chain. The ESL part is likely to be both more revealing than most other speakers and at the same time more sensitive to the driving equipment...
Good idea would be to compare to a full range ESL as a reference point for a given set of source gear. If you can.
_-_-bear
Ok, maybe there is *one* peak in the response that hit 92dB when they were testing it!
I wouldn't listen to DMB as a "test" of much, since he records in multi track'd mono - pure stereo, 2 mike recordings of vocal subjects are bound to be more revealing... but you should listen to your favs.
BUT, again, the subjective results are going to vary all over the map depending on the rest of the gear. You can get everything from hard and grainy, thin to smooth and rich depending on what is doing the rest of the signal chain. The ESL part is likely to be both more revealing than most other speakers and at the same time more sensitive to the driving equipment...
Good idea would be to compare to a full range ESL as a reference point for a given set of source gear. If you can.
_-_-bear
Hi Bazukaz,
i wouldn't agree that ESL are very sensitive to bad recordings. Its true that a bad recording do not offer the full potential, but you can still listen to it with significant enjoyment.
My experience with conventional speakers and ESL is, that some systems suffer specific limitations, which make them only sound good with music which doesn't address the limitations.
capaciti
i wouldn't agree that ESL are very sensitive to bad recordings. Its true that a bad recording do not offer the full potential, but you can still listen to it with significant enjoyment.
My experience with conventional speakers and ESL is, that some systems suffer specific limitations, which make them only sound good with music which doesn't address the limitations.
capaciti
Hi! guys,
Thinking about going for a pair of Quads ESL 988. But need to ask a few questions ro see if viable.
I heards that ESLs required largish rooms to sound best? Would they sound good in a room measuring 10' x 12' x 10' ft (W x L x H)?
I am running Pass Aleph 0 monoblocks, are they sufficient to drive the Quads?
Are the Quads bi-wireable or bi-ampable?
Thanks.
Thinking about going for a pair of Quads ESL 988. But need to ask a few questions ro see if viable.
I heards that ESLs required largish rooms to sound best? Would they sound good in a room measuring 10' x 12' x 10' ft (W x L x H)?
I am running Pass Aleph 0 monoblocks, are they sufficient to drive the Quads?
Are the Quads bi-wireable or bi-ampable?
Thanks.
To Piggyback with Bazukuz,
I would agree that ESL's are very sensitive to recording quality. Everything sounds great on them, but when you put a poorly recorded track on them, it is obvious. To me, they sometimes sound muffled. I really think that this has more to do with the fact that they are so transperant with good recordings, that bad recordings show a more obvious change.
Also, I cant remember the title of the album, but it is the one with satelite. Also, if you can get a hold of Bryan Adams DVD Audio "live at the Budokan"...I think you will be shocked at the realism in the guitar...Even if you do not like Bryan Adams.
Dominick
I would agree that ESL's are very sensitive to recording quality. Everything sounds great on them, but when you put a poorly recorded track on them, it is obvious. To me, they sometimes sound muffled. I really think that this has more to do with the fact that they are so transperant with good recordings, that bad recordings show a more obvious change.
Also, I cant remember the title of the album, but it is the one with satelite. Also, if you can get a hold of Bryan Adams DVD Audio "live at the Budokan"...I think you will be shocked at the realism in the guitar...Even if you do not like Bryan Adams.
Dominick
Dunno the 988, but ESLs do not require largish rooms at all. Actually they can be a problem if they get too large, since the max SPL is limited.
The trick is to be able to place the ESLs away from the walls/surfaces by 3 feet or more, and still be at a distance that is approximately the apex of an equilateral triangle where the speakers are the two "base" corners, and you are sitting at the apex...
I suspect the Aleph 0 will drive them, how many watts is that?
The limit will be the max SPL which you can figure out via the published sensitivity vs. the power available.
_-_-bear
Bear
Thanks for the reply. As to the speaker positioning, it it's 3 ft away from side walls, then the speakers would almost be side by side to each other?
How about like closer to side walls like 18 to 24 inches away from side wall?
However, it should not be a problem for 3 ft from rear wall, as my present speakers are more than that.
The Pass Aleph 0 is 75watts per chanel.
Given my room constrains, will it still sound good?
Thanks for the reply. As to the speaker positioning, it it's 3 ft away from side walls, then the speakers would almost be side by side to each other?
How about like closer to side walls like 18 to 24 inches away from side wall?
However, it should not be a problem for 3 ft from rear wall, as my present speakers are more than that.
The Pass Aleph 0 is 75watts per chanel.
Given my room constrains, will it still sound good?
Yeah, remind me to read what you wrote!
Your room is small, so you'll have little trouble filling it with sound.
The 75 watts should be ample, imho.
You can get fairly close to the side wall, but look out for what is on the wall that forms a direct reflection path back to you in the listening position. As if there was a mirror on the wall - the area where you'd literally see the speaker is the area of most concern here.
Whatever you have there, it is best that the two sides be more or less acoustically symmetrical, that is that they reflect or absorb sound about the same. A hard wall on one side and say a mattress laid up against the wall on the other would not be good.
Having both sides moderately diffusive and slightly absorptive is probably going to be best.
If you are between 1-2 ft from the sides, you're probably going to have the best compromise you are going to get in the room, but you should experiment with everything including having the speakers flush to the walls!!
Likely some toe in will be needed. Personally, I think that aimed approximately in front of your nose is often the best set up, especially in tight spaces. Experiment.
_-_-bear
Your room is small, so you'll have little trouble filling it with sound.
The 75 watts should be ample, imho.
You can get fairly close to the side wall, but look out for what is on the wall that forms a direct reflection path back to you in the listening position. As if there was a mirror on the wall - the area where you'd literally see the speaker is the area of most concern here.
Whatever you have there, it is best that the two sides be more or less acoustically symmetrical, that is that they reflect or absorb sound about the same. A hard wall on one side and say a mattress laid up against the wall on the other would not be good.
Having both sides moderately diffusive and slightly absorptive is probably going to be best.
If you are between 1-2 ft from the sides, you're probably going to have the best compromise you are going to get in the room, but you should experiment with everything including having the speakers flush to the walls!!
Likely some toe in will be needed. Personally, I think that aimed approximately in front of your nose is often the best set up, especially in tight spaces. Experiment.
_-_-bear
ESL’s are extremely revealing of all upstream components and of the recordings. But then, that’s the goal of any speaker. I find that ESL’s actually deliver (mostly).
I have found that mid-bass is an issue with most ESLs. Forget low bass, you need a sub.
To address the Mid-bass problem, mostly caused by the dipole nature of ESLs, I built a line array of mid-bass drivers to complement my new Center Channel speaker design based on a Martin Logan SL3. The results were incredible. The speaker now has amazing ‘punch’ and really does justice to a bass guitar and drums.
The reasons most people diss the hybrid ESL is that there are a couple of issues with them:
- Dispersion characteristics. A cone driver is not a line source and won’t image as one. This can be solved via line arrays
- Crossovers. Passive crossovers suck (IMHO). Getting time alignment, phasing and all other EQ and level matching done accurately enough requires a loudspeaker processor like a DBX DriveRack 260.
Deal with both of those, and a hybrid ESL will totally blow the socks off.
I have found that mid-bass is an issue with most ESLs. Forget low bass, you need a sub.
To address the Mid-bass problem, mostly caused by the dipole nature of ESLs, I built a line array of mid-bass drivers to complement my new Center Channel speaker design based on a Martin Logan SL3. The results were incredible. The speaker now has amazing ‘punch’ and really does justice to a bass guitar and drums.
The reasons most people diss the hybrid ESL is that there are a couple of issues with them:
- Dispersion characteristics. A cone driver is not a line source and won’t image as one. This can be solved via line arrays
- Crossovers. Passive crossovers suck (IMHO). Getting time alignment, phasing and all other EQ and level matching done accurately enough requires a loudspeaker processor like a DBX DriveRack 260.
Deal with both of those, and a hybrid ESL will totally blow the socks off.
JonFo said:
JonFo,
I have to disagree with some of your overall assessments.
Passive xovers work excellently, the implementation counts greatly.
I agree that if you need "delay" to "time align" your drivers, you may be forced to use a digital unit. But in general, today, the "digital xovers" that I have heard are far less transparent than passive xovers. They are getting better over time though...
The bass and mid bass performance of an ESL is a function of the design & engineering. The Acoustats (as has been mentioned before) go lower than most normal "box speakers." They do a solid 35Hz. or lower depending on the model number. Midbass is a non-issue.
Other ESLs do not do as well for a variety of engineering related causes - like the MLII for example, weak bottom end.
But it is not because of any property intrinsic to ESLs.
You are correct, that many commercial ESLs don't "do bass" well. Subs help. A line source *might* be better than a single driver as a sub - or not. It depends quite a bit on the room, the ESL in question and the SPL required, and of course the xover frequency!
As a sub, I doubt that there would be any audible variation due to polar response... and actually being closer to the floor is an asset in getting rid of the notch due to "floor bounce" in the midbass...
_-_-bear
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.