'Biefeld-Brown effect' based full range drivers

[CV]

Why the hell can they not just test these things in an evacuated tube?
cheers

[MJ Dijkstra]

The best way to check these lifters is testing them in absolute vacuum. It has been reported that they do not work in vacuum which is evident since they rely upon ion-wind. Some report they have a very little force in vacuum but this is caused by the non-perfect vacuum.
Some have increased the surface of the (counter) sheet which blocks the ionwind and thereby generating opposite momentum. Again, no thrust. Another evidence. If smoke is blown towards the electrostatic lifter it is pulled down (by the ion-wind (there are pictures of it on the web). So most evidence is leading to ion-wind mechanism and none towards some obscure anti-gravity. Besides, if you want to use this for sound reproduction you've got the problem of it being quite indirect. The whole thing starts with an ionisation process. After this, ions are accelerated towards the opposite pole. Then momentum of the ions is transferred to neutral atoms which creates upwards force of the whole capacitor device. The movements of the device have to be transferred to adjecant air (without distortion). Besides very inefficient (compared to the ESL) a lot of things can co wrong.
Anyway, I've caught an old TV monitor to tap the high voltage for my own lifter. The only sound I expect is some sizzling and sparks.
Bey,

[Indalhc]

Originally posted by MJ Dijkstra

If you want ions to make sound you should consider the plasma-tweeter.

Make the plasma tweeter full range, and you might also find yourself sitting
with a full fledged euphonic 'Lifter', and MWO d:

[Indalhc]

Originally posted by MJ Dijkstra Anyway, I've caught an old TV monitor to tap the high voltage for my own lifter. The only sound I expect is some sizzling and sparks.

Just a note of precaution for your Lifter experiments, to remember the standard safety measures while working with high voltages. It can also be a good thing to say a prayer to the god of all ions before before running a smoke test :

[Few]

The guys at the American Army Research Lab (ARL) have already shown that the location of neighboring masses has no bearing on the direction of the force. See (ARL link) for their description. That seems to end the anti-gravity argument.

They also point out that the direction of the force is independent of the polarity of the applied electric field. The force is always toward the smaller electrode. How can you then use such a device to make sound from AC electrical signals? It seems you'd end up with a rectified form of the music, which isn't what most people would consider high fidelity. Perhaps there's a way around this problem, but simply hooking up a high voltage version of the music signal to the asymmetric capacitor doesn't look like it would work (I was going to say it wouldn't fly, but I guess this is one case where it actually *might* fly).

Of course, I could just be missing something. It wouldn't be the first time...

[Indalhc]

Originally posted by Few They also point out that the direction of the force is independent of the polarity of the applied electric field. The force is always toward the smaller electrode. How can you then use such a device to make sound from AC electrical signals?

Wouldn't that be 'single-ended', as in class A amplifier operation? We should remember here that the plasma tweeters do work, and the Biefeld-Brown effect would have some influence on them as well. And their operation is also single-ended, they push the air in one direction and the audio signal is floating on the top of that 'air stream'. Here is an excerpt from the ARL paper you mentioned. <<On July 3, 1957, Brown filed another patent (granted on January 23, 1962, as U.S. Patent No. 3018394) for an “Electrokinetic Transducer.” This patent deals with the inverse effect, i.e., when a dielectric medium is made to move between high voltage electrodes, there is a change in the voltage on the electrodes. (This is reminiscent of Faraday’s law of induction.) Quoting from the 1962 patent by Thomas Townsend Brown (Figure 5). >> So they were already into this back then

[Indalhc]

“Electrokinetic Transducer.” This patent deals with the inverse effect, i.e., when
a dielectric medium is made to move between high voltage electrodes, there is a change in the voltage on the electrodes.

This above sounds like a very promising model for a plasma microphone (air as the
dielectric medium). Maybe that would be a better start...

About the single ended AC signal. Normally zero volts is at 0. In a single ended design
you put the zero (bias point) somewhere upwards, say at 2 Volts, then you could have
the peak positive part of the wave at (+) 4 volts and the peak negative at (-) 0 volt.

In a normal class A amplifier this 'SE' signal is converted by the output transformer.
Plasma tranducers operate natively with single ended signals, so no conversion is needed.

[Indalhc]

..eh, there seems to have been a systems overflow here: It is the push-pull amplifiers who converts their signals at/by the output transformer, and surely a dynamic transducer also operate natively with 'single ended' signals.

[Indalhc]

Originally posted by MJ Dijkstra


These lifters are not that effective. Maybe they can be improved by using ESL-technology (high resistive coating of the counter electrode instead of aluminium foil)

Say! it has been established that the plasma tweeter principle do work (Acapella ION TW 1S and others), compared to a full range Biefeld-Brown based transducer, these may actually prove to be much less efficient (with their visually 'open flames', evidently a lot of waste going on there).

My suggestion for an arrangement of a new plasma transducer is to eventually have an array of very small units, much similar to a plasma TV 'wall'. The audio (maybe a little far away here) could be stored in a 20bit (18 and even 17 would be sufficient, but 20 is a more even number) video format. Instead of stereo one could now have a much more precise and natural localization of every instrument, without the need of using 'dirty/audio degenerating phasing tricks' as in conventional stereo programming. New mixer desks would have to be built, although most of this technology exists today, within video.

Every instrument channel could be made to carry audio in a more true 3d form - in fact as each instrument was physically shaped (with reference here to present day digital crossover processors able to store and actively make use of individual transducer data). Much of the signal processing could be based on the raw material from one microphone only (one for each instrument), and the rest of the sound modeling was from there made in software (phase/3D depth information mainly (by all means, some day microphones may actually have the appearance and function as a video camera, they could well be made into one eventually (and mic/camera's, eg one for each instrument) - with similar incorporation on the replay from the plasma wall, beside every video pixel one audio/plasma pixel etc)). [From there] one could zoom into each instrument. A violin or a cymbal could literally fill the room

I think much of the above is within reach for DIY.

(About the plasma microphone mentioned earlier, to make it safe it could have all its high voltage circuitry physically isolated and additionally use radio transmission. With active humidity compensation such microphones could well be capable of the highest SPL's ever, at the same time having the broadest of dynamics. Also being one of the safest - safer than 48 Volts of phantom power even.)

[classd4sure]

Far out. If you keep talking like that though I think Sony or the RIAA is going to end up rubbing you out