I know that but it still doesn make sense...
I think also that the thickness is the problem. If they cut it, i only need to sum 4pcs 50cm*34cm +2meters as a reserve, but still i dont know the dimensions of the whole roll to tell exactly how long i need.
If i remember corectly mr Deminiere now uses 180gr/sqm paper on the janus 50 wich looks like nomex to me.
I think also that the thickness is the problem. If they cut it, i only need to sum 4pcs 50cm*34cm +2meters as a reserve, but still i dont know the dimensions of the whole roll to tell exactly how long i need.
If i remember corectly mr Deminiere now uses 180gr/sqm paper on the janus 50 wich looks like nomex to me.
Could be , high end won't be best with 180 grams, it does help with the low end since it is stiffer , yeah so you don't need much and I definitely don't need 350 wide.
Yeah, you are right. Even if i buy 20meters, 330m is still very much...
Today i listened to the wax impregnated membranes and the laqueur sprayed ones. I have to say that the wax ones are more straight looking, are less prone to gaining wrinkles and are looking like they are as rigid as the laqueured ones and they are more flexible and easy to handle and center than the laq ones.
Soundwise it seems that the wax from the membranes tends to have a dampening effect on symphonic music and especially to low piano notes and aglomerated music pasages (and hight peaks wich makes them just as they are) where the laq ones seemed to shout and are comporting like they have a hard time dealing with this kind of music.
These are my first impressions. Will have to listen to them more and at the end measure them and post.
Cheers
Sergiu
Soundwise it seems that the wax from the membranes tends to have a dampening effect on symphonic music and especially to low piano notes and aglomerated music pasages (and hight peaks wich makes them just as they are) where the laq ones seemed to shout and are comporting like they have a hard time dealing with this kind of music.
These are my first impressions. Will have to listen to them more and at the end measure them and post.
Cheers
Sergiu
Thaw wax does not have more low but less mid, wich feels more balanced, Every measurement i see there is only change in mid and top end, stifness does make more of the membrane move when You pulll iT appart side ways.
I stil did not find a balance between the part that emits highs and the stiff low end,
Yesterday I tried cut triangles out of the foam where it glued to the coil former, and used thin nomex over it, result is not great the peaks and null ar insane since there is an area that emits highs in diferent places in space that creates a comb filter ( really ugly) when you force the cylinders to have a bigger diameter , for instance Pull them appart or try to flatten them, the comb filter moves up, but to eliminate it the distance front to back that emits 20khz might not be greater the 8,5 mm, that is pretty huge cylinder , to know how big the cylinder should be we must know how far from the middle of the cylinder emits these frequencys, then you know from the center to the place it stops emitting 20khz the distance of that spot to the center may only be 8,5 mm
Then you can calculate the diameter of the cylinder, my guess really big.
Another way is to dampen the **** out of the foam board or other material at this 8.5 mm
in my diy DML video with the black foam board , the spot that emits highs is only 6-8 mm deep and there the top end look rather smooth, it does fall at 17 kHz because I think the whole thing is still to heavy , I only used a small bit of eq at 18,5khz to extend to 20khz
I might buy some of that stuff again, I used some weird paper for coil former and 3 mm black foam board cut under an angle to create s v shape in the middle. Stupid thing is that in this way because the foam board is at 90 degree to the coil it does not move the foam board enough to be useful for low end to , it is really more like a dml then a conventional speaker. The ruba is actually not a DML down low it rellys on the cylinders move front to back.
It annoying there is no free lunch you fix one thing and create another problem
But won't give up
I stil did not find a balance between the part that emits highs and the stiff low end,
Yesterday I tried cut triangles out of the foam where it glued to the coil former, and used thin nomex over it, result is not great the peaks and null ar insane since there is an area that emits highs in diferent places in space that creates a comb filter ( really ugly) when you force the cylinders to have a bigger diameter , for instance Pull them appart or try to flatten them, the comb filter moves up, but to eliminate it the distance front to back that emits 20khz might not be greater the 8,5 mm, that is pretty huge cylinder , to know how big the cylinder should be we must know how far from the middle of the cylinder emits these frequencys, then you know from the center to the place it stops emitting 20khz the distance of that spot to the center may only be 8,5 mm
Then you can calculate the diameter of the cylinder, my guess really big.
Another way is to dampen the **** out of the foam board or other material at this 8.5 mm
in my diy DML video with the black foam board , the spot that emits highs is only 6-8 mm deep and there the top end look rather smooth, it does fall at 17 kHz because I think the whole thing is still to heavy , I only used a small bit of eq at 18,5khz to extend to 20khz
I might buy some of that stuff again, I used some weird paper for coil former and 3 mm black foam board cut under an angle to create s v shape in the middle. Stupid thing is that in this way because the foam board is at 90 degree to the coil it does not move the foam board enough to be useful for low end to , it is really more like a dml then a conventional speaker. The ruba is actually not a DML down low it rellys on the cylinders move front to back.
It annoying there is no free lunch you fix one thing and create another problem
But won't give up
Oh btw , i must add what i say is not a fact , just what i think is happening according to the tests i made. i will get some black foam board this envening, and i might test sort of the contruction i had 6 months ago and see what happens more closely with the new coils in place and nomex instead of the paper i used back then.
"It annoying there is no free lunch you fix one thing and create another problem .".......
This is right my friend. I have tried different sorts of arrangements, and my conclusion was that you cannot make it really fullrange unless heavy eq wich i hate. After this conclusion my trials where focused on how i would like it to sound; and i like it to sound balanced with a stunning presence, focus, depth and a +-10dB frecv responce graph (to go tighter you need stiffer and more exotic materials) with paper (i just love that sound signature) because my vers goes down to 200hz and i think i achieved this thing and will post my graphs this evening.
Another conclusion that i have is that the speakers actual responce curve is the one measured with the mic on axis positioned perpendiculary on the imaginary line traced between the top of the curve of each cil. An even smoother frecv responce is with the mic pointing at one cil, right where they meet; but this is neither the overall fecv resp, the real one is a sum of the frecv responce from the traingle cuts (where the dips and peaks moves up or down depending on the dimensions and the simetry of the cuts) and the on axis graph mention earlyier.
I tryied measuring at 5,10,15,25,40,60,100cm and its seems that the mic is not only picking room reflections and noises but the dips are getting lower and peaks higher also wich i think its a sum between all the reflections, noises and the phenomena that we know it happends on this speaker between the two cils emitting the same sound at the same time.
These are my conclusions based on the tests and experiments made till now.
"Thaw wax does not have more low but less mid, wich feels more balanced, Every measurement i see there is only change in mid and top end, stifness does make more of the membrane move when You pulll iT appart side ways."
I think you are right, i have seen this weekend that the wax not only dampens the mids but the hights also.
Cheers
Sergiu
This is right my friend. I have tried different sorts of arrangements, and my conclusion was that you cannot make it really fullrange unless heavy eq wich i hate. After this conclusion my trials where focused on how i would like it to sound; and i like it to sound balanced with a stunning presence, focus, depth and a +-10dB frecv responce graph (to go tighter you need stiffer and more exotic materials) with paper (i just love that sound signature) because my vers goes down to 200hz and i think i achieved this thing and will post my graphs this evening.
Another conclusion that i have is that the speakers actual responce curve is the one measured with the mic on axis positioned perpendiculary on the imaginary line traced between the top of the curve of each cil. An even smoother frecv responce is with the mic pointing at one cil, right where they meet; but this is neither the overall fecv resp, the real one is a sum of the frecv responce from the traingle cuts (where the dips and peaks moves up or down depending on the dimensions and the simetry of the cuts) and the on axis graph mention earlyier.
I tryied measuring at 5,10,15,25,40,60,100cm and its seems that the mic is not only picking room reflections and noises but the dips are getting lower and peaks higher also wich i think its a sum between all the reflections, noises and the phenomena that we know it happends on this speaker between the two cils emitting the same sound at the same time.
These are my conclusions based on the tests and experiments made till now.
"Thaw wax does not have more low but less mid, wich feels more balanced, Every measurement i see there is only change in mid and top end, stifness does make more of the membrane move when You pulll iT appart side ways."
I think you are right, i have seen this weekend that the wax not only dampens the mids but the hights also.
Cheers
Sergiu
This morning when i made a hot shower, an extreme test came to my mind... i close the fan that vents the steam out of apartment bathroom and after an hour i placed the wax + laq ruban onto the toilet seat and let it cook as seen in the photo bellow...) Of course you couldnt have that much humidity in your house even if its raining like pouring drops with a bucket outside.
After three hours ( 30minutes ago) the results are encouraging. The membrane bended in the 4mm gap but not much. I still had almost 1mm till rubbing in the center. Took about 20minutes for the coil to get straight again in my listening room (wich is periodically vented for fresh air). If i had 3mm gap, the coil was definetly rubbing.
Cheers
Sergiu
) Of course you couldnt have that much humidity in your house even if its raining like pouring drops with a bucket outside. After three hours ( 30minutes ago) the results are encouraging. The membrane bended in the 4mm gap but not much. I still had almost 1mm till rubbing in the center. Took about 20minutes for the coil to get straight again in my listening room (wich is periodically vented for fresh air). If i had 3mm gap, the coil was definetly rubbing.
Cheers
Sergiu
Attachments
nice test
I had a brainfart today, about the coil former. when you look at it from the front.
There is a space between one coil and the one behind it. this wikll result in a phase difference. it all depends on the speed of sound in the coil former where it will create a PEAK and a NULL. so bigger mangnets will result in a change of them being in the audibly area bigger. compared to small magnets. even the there is a difference between the first winding at the front to the first winding on the back coil. with steel of 10mm this would be almost 20mm if the coil is aexactly as big as the metal structure.
in air that would result in 344/0.02 17Khz , now the coil former is not made of air so where it would land is a gues for me.
I had a brainfart today, about the coil former. when you look at it from the front.
There is a space between one coil and the one behind it. this wikll result in a phase difference. it all depends on the speed of sound in the coil former where it will create a PEAK and a NULL. so bigger mangnets will result in a change of them being in the audibly area bigger. compared to small magnets. even the there is a difference between the first winding at the front to the first winding on the back coil. with steel of 10mm this would be almost 20mm if the coil is aexactly as big as the metal structure.
in air that would result in 344/0.02 17Khz , now the coil former is not made of air so where it would land is a gues for me
.
Interesting theory my friend. Indeed there is a phase difference in the former. Havent thinked about the former this way. If i remember well i made some tests at the begining with allot of cuts in the former (wich in my case is the membrane itself) and the graphs where showing a wider gap in the 1khz-1.5khz area +smaller gaps as add on beneath and above this region and soundwise they where too bright and lacked mids allot.
Still cant find a way to approach this theory and study it.
Today i auditionned two vers of rubans: the full laq (wich has laq applyied on all the surface and no impregnation for the coil former) and a 50-50% laq/wax with the former impregnated with laq.
There is a subtle difference (soundwise)between them: the full laq seems to be more sensitive at microdetails wich is a sign of more hights and the voice is more present in the room and but the 50-50 wax has more roundness in the voice wich is an effect created by the stiffness of the heavier impregnated coil but the voices are reproduced like the singer is abit in the backcompared to the full laq and seems that this speaker has abit less hights but an overall balanced sound.
Both speakers have same 15ohm dc impedance.
Hard choice to make because both are singing great.
Practically i see this situation this way: the full laq is emitting sound from and onto the surface of the membranes wich have laq applyied on them and the paper act as dumping and sound reproduction, but on the waxed one is being the sound is being emited inside the membranes and on the surface.
Cheers
Sergiu
Still cant find a way to approach this theory and study it.
Today i auditionned two vers of rubans: the full laq (wich has laq applyied on all the surface and no impregnation for the coil former) and a 50-50% laq/wax with the former impregnated with laq.
There is a subtle difference (soundwise)between them: the full laq seems to be more sensitive at microdetails wich is a sign of more hights and the voice is more present in the room and but the 50-50 wax has more roundness in the voice wich is an effect created by the stiffness of the heavier impregnated coil but the voices are reproduced like the singer is abit in the backcompared to the full laq and seems that this speaker has abit less hights but an overall balanced sound.
Both speakers have same 15ohm dc impedance.
Hard choice to make because both are singing great.
Practically i see this situation this way: the full laq is emitting sound from and onto the surface of the membranes wich have laq applyied on them and the paper act as dumping and sound reproduction, but on the waxed one is being the sound is being emited inside the membranes and on the surface.
Cheers
Sergiu
nice you dont do measurements anymore ? to backup the things you hear? would be nice.
Im playing still with bending foam and adding some eq. i still think it might have potential. i play with one version down to 65 hz where it is crossed. volume wise. its kind of late so i dont dare to blast it also i need a more sturdy frame, since everything will get into motion at higher volumes and make noises of there own i do like the crossover beter this low. everything seems to come from the fullrange and not a clear separation i felt all the time . aah well still a prototype in my small 200mm motor. i bought some metal for a 700mm motor i want to use with the very thin 1 mm magnets instead of the 5 mm. i dont need SPL i need more surface area since the woofer is still 10db down in eficiency compared tot he fullrange. since it is an openbaffle as well. also i dont dare to use so many 5mm magnets on the 700mm im scared of clamping my thumb off or never be able to separate them bars.
you dont do measurements anymore ? to backup the things you hear? would be nice.Im playing still with bending foam and adding some eq. i still think it might have potential. i play with one version down to 65 hz where it is crossed. volume wise. its kind of late so i dont dare to blast it
also i need a more sturdy frame, since everything will get into motion at higher volumes and make noises of there own i do like the crossover beter this low. everything seems to come from the fullrange and not a clear separation i felt all the time . aah well still a prototype in my small 200mm motor. i bought some metal for a 700mm motor i want to use with the very thin 1 mm magnets instead of the 5 mm. i dont need SPL i need more surface area since the woofer is still 10db down in eficiency compared tot he fullrange. since it is an openbaffle as well. also i dont dare to use so many 5mm magnets on the 700mm im scared of clamping my thumb off or never be able to separate them bars.
Well my friend, i actually made measurements for the full laq and wax 1 versions in the past weekend, wanted to post but didnt have time to open the pc again and write my thoughts down. This wax 2 vers isnt measured yet. I hope that tomorrow after work or sunday i will post the graphs.
Cheers
Sergiu
Cheers
Sergiu
Here they are my friend. To be easy for everyone to follow and watch the graphs i posted the graphs just for the laq+a comparison (law vs wax)+THD for LAQ(i pointed out the highest distorsion, the rest are bellow 1%). If you are interested i can post for the wax also.
I didnt measure yet the 50%laq-50%wax ("wax2" from the post here). I will measure it this week.
Cheers
Sergiu
I didnt measure yet the 50%laq-50%wax ("wax2" from the post here). I will measure it this week.
Cheers
Sergiu
Attachments
-
red=wax;green=laq; on axis;0cm from the face of the cils.jpg -
laq;green=mic=0cm from face of cils; yellow=5 cm from top of the cils.jpg -
laq;green=mic=0cm from face of cils; white green=10 cm from top of the cils.jpg -
laq;green=mic=0cm from face of cils; pink=50 cm from top of the cils.jpg -
DIST laq; on axis;0cm from the face of the cils.jpg
This is what i sayed in my earlyier posts: when increasing the distance from speaker to mic, the mic is begining to pick up noises and reflexions. To me the only relevant measurement is the 0cm from the face of the cils, till someone from Piatra Neamt/Romania wants to help me with an anechoic chamber to proper measure this speaker.
Distortion you can measure up close ,frequency response would be at least 50 cm since some phasing would not show up otherwise . A combination would be best but anyhow looking good !!! I just bought some new foam for a big one 60 cm instead of the curently used 20cm . I hope the low end will improve below 300
60 cm instead of the curently used 20cm . I hope the low end will improve below 300
Last night i listened to both 50-50 laq and full laq (15ohms coils) and then stripped down the 50-50 vers and assembled the good old "classic" (8ohm). The result, well, this newer version have better bass reproduction, more ample, and even more lower responce. I placed the filter on both and i still had a serious more bass on the laq. When i removed the filter, they both loose some dB, the classic starts buzzing but the laq no, and still has a bit more lower bass reprod+ abit more perceived hights (it may be so because the full laq vers is just covered with laq but not impregnated).
It seems that the solution for your bass quest is a 15ohm coil. Its easyier than other expensive mods. I really mean it!
Cheers
Sergiu
It seems that the solution for your bass quest is a 15ohm coil. Its easyier than other expensive mods. I really mean it!
Cheers
Sergiu
For the THD graph i played lower dB so that it would match with the other distances. At 50cm dist i played it loud and could generate a new dist graph if you want to see it?
It doesnt alter this actual graph with allot of dist. I seen it yesterday.
Cheers