ESL Dynamics, Microdynamics,Macrodynamics

[michaelpage26]

There's a rumor/case that ESLs compress the dynamics of the recordings due to limited excursion?

An ESL with a transient subwoofer that maches in really excellent, in which of the following cases can struggle?

Dynamics, Microdynamics, Macrodynamics... (What all these mean?)

I know that the ESLs are excellent in microdynamics
but I think that a speaker has good macrodynamics when it has fast and forceful bass (and not in the case of loudness)
If that's wrong then we have dynamics in the high frequencies? (I don't think so!)
So where's the problem with electrostatics technology?

Please shed some light down here...
Thanks

Michael

[analog_sa]

At the time when i used to build ESL panels i used to wonder as well. In many cases the mechanical design is responsible for the squashed dynamics but more often than not it is the amp. Unless you use some smart impedance equalising network the ESL panel/transformer presents most amps with a formidable load. I noticed that every time i double the number of output devices the dynamics will improve. At the end i started tri-amping using not only separate amps for each frequency band but also separate step-up transformers. Big improvement.

[bear]

ESLs have to make up for limited Xmax (excursion) by using large surface area.

It takes voltage swing to make the diaphragm move - that is supplied by an amplifier. Since the load is capacitive the amp needs to be stable into the load AND have sufficient voltage swing to reach the requisite output level.

Compared to standard dynamic speakers an ESL must be many times the front surface area to have an equal output and bandwidth. And even with that, a lower *apparent* efficiency - meaning that you need a "more powerful" amp (higher rails = higher output voltage swing) to achieve those levels.

Having said that most home size ESLs simply will not reach the same max SPL that *some* relatively small dynamic speakers can. On the other hand, at "normal" listening levels you've got a wide range speaker that has superior transient response, and that has the comensurate benefits that listening to such a speaker confers.

Macro/micro dynamics? Relatively meaningless terms except to describe a subjective experience. Imho.

Keep this in mind, lower distortion speakers sound *less loud* at the same actual SPL levels as do higher distortion speakers. Subjectively we interpret a certain amount of distortion as loudness, especially when it is slightly "loud".

Just my opinions here.

_-_-bear

[michaelpage26]

Yeah I agree with you bear, meaningless words...

But I think since Esls have Xmax that is enough for the midrange and treble they don't compress the dynamics of a recording at these regions...

On the other hand where the Xmax isn't enough is the bass region under 200Hz... So sub that matches the fast membranes can fix the problem of bass dynamics compression and last octaves lost....>

Is this true?

If it is true then why everybody says that a hybrid ESL/dynamic can't have the dynamics of B&W Nautilus for example?

[michaelpage26]

Sorry but I didn't get a specific answer


What makes a ESL Dynamic capable?


I know it has to do about size and Xmax!
Can we talk about dynamics in highs or in the upper midrange/midrange >200Hz?
If we can't, then why an ESL isn't as good as a convetional lou-speaker in dynamics if it has a sub with really deep fast bass and high Xmax with x-over 200Hz?

Thanks

Mike

[mwmkravchenko]

In a nut shell the combination of the ESL's surface area and the amount of output voltage "swing" that the amplifier is able to produce. THe next factor is the combination of the diaphragm to stator spacing. There is a balance needed between the space between the stator and the diaphragm and the polarizing voltage. A small space will make for a slightly more efficient loudspeaker. A smaller space will also limit the amount of excursion that is allowable. This will limit the bass. A small space will reduce the maximum polarizing voltage and therefore reduce the efficiency.

So the short answer is a HUGE panel with a HUGe amp that can drive very low impedances under highly capacitive conditions.

Two tall orders please!

Mark

[GRollins]

Shouting a question just because you didn't get the answer you wanted isn't polite.
You seem to be wanting quick-and-easy answers to non-trivial questions.
There's no way to get deep bass out of an ESL without making them the size of a barn door. As for the dynamics, there are a number of factors involved, including the mass of the diaphragm (including conductive coating), the restriction on air flow due to the physical structure of the speakers (perforated metal stators, for instance, greatly increase the loading on the driver compared to, say, the old Acoustat wire design), the amp driving the speaker, and so on.
Adding a dynamic driver to augment the bass would seem like an easy answer...it's just that there aren't any dynamic drivers that are as fast as an ESL. That leads to an audible change in sound quality once the speaker crosses over to the woofer. If it were an easy thing to accomplish, all the ESL manufacturers wouldn't have to keep claiming to have "finally" solved the problem. They haven't.
A better match would be a planar magnetic woofer, but I'm not aware of any commercial designs that have tried it.
In the meantime, go buy a pair of the big Sound Labs ESLs. They do a pretty good job on all fronts.

Grey

EDIT: Besides, who says ESLs aren't dynamic?

[Pan]

Grey,

"Adding a dynamic driver to augment the bass would seem like an easy answer...it's just that there aren't any dynamic drivers that are as fast as an ESL."

Aahh! Common. Fast bass?

Ok, seriously it´s about room loading and power response. The ESL63 with Gradient subs works fine in most poeples opinion, and I liked it as hell. I think that was the first time I heard dipole bass, some ten years ago.

Short answer: use dipole dynamic subs to E-stats.

/Peter

[GRollins]

Room loading and power response have nothing to do with transient response. If it makes you happy, go with it--it's your money. I've never heard anything that will mate seamlessly with an ESL, although I'd be willing to give a planar a try. I don't currently have access to a good ESL for experiments along those lines and I can't afford the time to build a set.
Setting aside questions about the speed of the drivers, the very fact that you're inserting a crossover into what was previously a single-driver system will begin degrading the sound quality. One of the most important advantages to ESLs is the very fact that they sound continuous from top to bottom. It's not a property to be thrown away lightly.
ESLs have a number of problems, of course. The flat panels beam, the segmented ones have lobing effects, the curved ones are prone to resonances, they have to be really, really big in order to generate decent bass, and they present odd loads to amplifiers. Then there's that pesky transformer in the signal path--normally something that only tube folks and (some) ribbon owners have to put up with. It's enough to drive you crazy. If it weren't for the fact that ESLs do some things astoundingly well the whole idea would have been scrapped long ago.

Grey

[michaelpage26]

Thanks guys for the realy intresting questions and by the way sorry for the possible impoliteness in my previous post...