Pros and cons of small ESL tweeters?

[bear]

Originally posted by tiroth
You can describe it however you like, but ribbons definitely have "something" (air, sizzle, call it what you will) that typical dynamic tweeters usually lack. Some people consider this harsh, others revealing, everyone will make their mind up for themselves.

It's like the characteristic "raspy" sound that the Proac 2.5s have...some people hate it and spend countless hours "fixing" it. Personally, I think it is part of the charm of this loudspeaker. (Note: I agree that the bump in FR needs to be eliminated, that is a separate issue)

Well, we now have to inquire as to your personal listening experiences, since your description of the characteristic of *ribbons* does not correlate to mine.

Having said that, ribbons such as the Apogee line imho did have a specific characteristic to their sound, but this has little to do with being a characteristic of *all* ribbons. It is/was due to some very specific design "issues."

If anything the sound from high quality ribbons is not raspy, it's incredibly sweet and "light." Perhaps too polite.

So, it is my thought that what you've heard is the ribbon accurately reproducing various sorts of "hash" and distortions present in the gear that is feeding the ribbon.

As far as the Proac line, the last time I heard them they did not have ribbon tweeters in their boxes, so I can't hazard a guess as to what the issue may be with that particular manufacturers speakers...

Lets please discriminate between "pure ribbons" and "planar" or "leaf ribbons". While they can share the best qualities of a "ribbon" they each have some unique design tradeoffs and resulting issues depending upon the specifics of the implementation.

Let me add that the absolutely cleanest ribbon I have ever heard, and for that matter the cleanest tweeter I have ever heard - bar none - was a particular high output "leaf ribbon." This particular unit, modified slightly from stock had vanishingly low levels of distortion when played at normal listening levels, on par with some power amplifiers! What this meant is that almost a full order of magnitude *less* distortion than usual was not part of the reproduction. Which made it amazingly easy to discern facets of the signal that were formerly less than clear, without that effect being due to a frequency response variation or peak (as is frequently the case when you suddenly "hear things that were never there before."

This ribbon added nothing, and made practically no sound of its own - certainly compared to *any* dome tweeter, and probably any other tweeter regardless of price or type.

So, I'd suggest that you re-investigate the *causal* factors that brought you to your conclusions about ribbon tweeters in general. Specific ribbon designs can be flawed for certain. But not all, and it's not inherent to the technology itself.

BTW, there are issues relating to the application and effectiveness of a ribbon when *integrated* into a system, but that's another topic - I point it out only to indicate that ribbons are not perfect and are not a panacea, and will not even be a good match in some situations...

_-_-bear

[tiroth]

Bear,

I think you are reading far too much into my choice of words, but you've enunciated quite clearly what I was trying to express, so I thank you. We indeed all agree that ribbons in general and the AC ones in particular are quite lovely. I just wanted to make James aware that this is not a universal view amongst audiophiles, so personal experience is valuable.

[SY]

Let me add that the absolutely cleanest ribbon I have ever heard, and for that matter the cleanest tweeter I have ever heard - bar none - was a particular high output "leaf ribbon." This particular unit, modified slightly from stock had vanishingly low levels of distortion when played at normal listening levels, on par with some power amplifiers!

Panasonic?

[rcavictim]

Bear,

Don't hold us all hanging at the end of our linear travel. What WAS that particular high output leaf ribbon that impressed you so?

BTW, what is the consensus here about the PE PT-2 planar tweeter? I have used a pair and I'm gonna keep my comments to myself until I hear from others.

[tiroth]

rcavictim,

I'll be interested to hear. I've been searching for a sub $50 "ribbon sounding" driver and have yet to find it.

I tried the Monsoon planar tweeter elements on Planet10's suggestion. They do sound surprisingly good (good enough for the surround sound dipoles I'm building) but not good enough for hifi mains IMHO. In the plus column was that lively "planar/tweeter" sound, in the minus column was an uneven FR response and a real tendency to SHOUT. Probably due to the bump in the response around 10-15k.

Bang for the buck though? Hard to beat. I got 4 elements, plus the little powered amp/sub/extra drivers for $50 on eBay.

[rcavictim]

Originally posted by tiroth
rcavictim,

I'll be interested to hear. I've been searching for a sub $50 "ribbon sounding" driver and have yet to find it.

OK viewers...anyone out ther used the Dayton PT-2 or it's newer release available at Parts Express? Your thoughts/appraisals appreciated.

[bear]

Originally posted by SY


Panasonic?

Very not Panasonic.

Pro Sound item, very expensive, max SPL ~128dB w/ <1%THD.

_-_-bear

[rcavictim]

Originally posted by bear



Very not Panasonic.

Pro Sound item, very expensive, max SPL ~128dB w/ <1%THD.

_-_-bear

Bear,

Is there any particular reason you are not tellinmg us what the name and model of the driver you speak of is? I would like to know, maybe even buy a pair after some research. Thanx.

[Claus]

One hell of a ribbon driver should be the pro driver from SA. So maybe this is the driver Bear is taking about. You can get it horn loaded or not.

stage-accompany

Claus

[bear]

Yes.

A few reasons.

First, I don't make a habit of recommending specific products in this context in a forum like this.

Second, I am not particularly happy with this particular manufacturer, for assorted reasons. I was technically a distributor for them, but that's another story...

Third, the last thing I want to do is to increase sales for some other company, especially given the above.

And fourth, sometimes it's better for people to do their own poking about and make up their own minds, rather than perpetuate what I call (loosely speaking) "the product of the month club"...

Hope this makes sense...

_-_-bear