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Old 31st August 2004, 03:43 AM   #11
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Nelson,

Thankyou for all the information!

+ In the specs for the Manger, they show it producing output to 35Khz. In your manger4.gif, the output is down 60dB at 20Khz. Was that a limitation of the testing equipment?

+ In manger2.jpg you have the Manger orientated with the spring wires vertically and horizontally. Was this arbitrary? Other builds seem to have the springs in a X shape.

Cheers,
Antony
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Old 31st August 2004, 03:53 AM   #12
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Charles,

I have not heard of a proposal for an an active Manger.
I would be very interested - Please undig!

Thanks,
Antony
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Old 31st August 2004, 06:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
I'd be interested knowing your opinion on using multiple Manger drivers to overcome LF obstacles they pose as a single driver unit.
I wouldn't do this for two reasons:

1.) The size of the Mangers will lead to comb filtering, starting at relatively low frequencies.

2.) The combined bass-response of multiple Manger drivers is easily outperformed by conventional drivers, costing a fraction of even a single Manger driver.

If you want to use them really fullrange then there are the following solutions: Closed box with EQ. I would use this only for near-field listening, where SPL demand isn't very high. I actually know someone who does this in a studio. He built a small active speaker with an integrated small SET amp !
The other solutions are horns like N.P.'s proposal or the so called "Basstuba". There is also a proposal by a fellow citizen (who is a member of this forum) for some hybrid reflex/TML tuning.

http://www.hm-moreart.de/4.htm

http://home.tiscalinet.ch/cooltune

Regards

Charles
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Old 31st August 2004, 06:57 AM   #14
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I am just about to try and build two full range loudspeaker that:
+ Use a Manger unit (80Hz-35KHz)
+ Use A Tumult (14Hz - 400Hz)
+ R-DES equalisation for the Tumult, and cross it at 150Hz
+ A Phonic (or other) active crossover for the Manger at 150Hz

I intend to use one of the Tumult voice coils for the Left Bass, and the other for the LFE channel. The right speakers Tumult voice coils will be used for Right bass and LFE channel as well.

Properly crossed over there is no left or right bass.


1) What I am wondering is whether an R-DES equalised bass from a Q=0.707 seal box would 'more musical'/better than the "130litre 16Hz tuned" ported box that was suggested by Dan in a ealier post (Karolina was interested in high output).

What are you going to amplifiy the Tumult with?

If you plan to use one of the Hypex amps sold by Adire or some other subwoofer amp you may not get to 16 Hz due the high pass filter found in most if not all of these type amps.


(Assume that the R-DES can equalise both responses so they look identical).

2) I read that the Zerobox (HF section using 3 Manger units) uses a first order crossover with impedance compensation.

The only crossovers for this that I have seen on the internet use resistors to reduce the Mangers sensitivity (I guess).

Given the choice do you think using an active crossover is likely to produce a better sound than a Capacitor/Inductor crossover feeding the Manger.

If the answer is just use a first order cross over circuit that "starts from 350hz", would you have any idea what the circuit would look like without any resistors. I am a little scared of using Theil small parametes as this unit doesn't work using principles governed by TS analysis.

3) Anyone else tried using Tumults for full range speakers have any experences/tips they would like to share.. that would be fantastic!

I have a Shiva in a 3.6 cu. ft. ported box powered by an HS 200 and it is impressive, to say the least. I don't beleive these drivers will work as full range units. To see why this is true you should download the demo of LSPcad from www.adireaudio.com and run any of the subwoofer drivers. Unfortunately the Tumult is not in the data base, but I think you'll get the idea.


Under the section labeled drive unit go to configuration and check the box marked impact from Le.


Good luck with the project.
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Old 31st August 2004, 05:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by aj_newman
+ In the specs for the Manger, they show it producing output to 35Khz. In your manger4.gif, the output is down 60dB at 20Khz. Was that a limitation of the testing equipment?

+ In manger2.jpg you have the Manger orientated with the spring wires vertically and horizontally. Was this arbitrary? Other builds seem to have the springs in a X shape.
1) That curve manger4, was noted as 1 KHz bandwidth, so that
we are only looking at the bottom end up to about 300 Hz or
so

2) manger5 showed the response with 25 KHz bandwidth, so it
could go to 35K without me seeing it.

3) I did not discern that there would be any difference in
orientation. It was arbitrary.

Regarding the question about sound, this is of course very
subjective. I used them full range, without woofers or tweeters,
and I found the speakers neutral and pleasant. At the same
time, my personal preference is a bit toward the more lively
quality of something like the Lowthers DX55's, in spite of all the
extra treatment they require. Both products are engineering
masterpieces. Take your pick: they seem to cost about the same.
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Old 1st September 2004, 03:58 AM   #16
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Hi Arthur,

Thanks for the response:

> Properly crossed over there is no left or right bass.

I want to create a L & R loudspeaker that can be used for Stereo music, and for the L, R and LFE channels in a Home Cinema. When asked, most decoders don't fully add the LFE channel to just the Front L & R speakers; They often curtail the response, or in my case, as my rear speakers are also set to 'Large', they will send some of the LFE to the rear speakers, but I only want the LFE to come out of the L and R tumults.

And so I was intending to use the Left tumult to play the L low frequency using one of the Tumult coils, and using the second coil to play 1/2 of the LFE channel.

The R Tumult would likewise have one coil for the R bass, and the other for 1/2 the LFE channel.

> What are you going to amplifiy the Tumult with?
> If you plan to use one of the Hypex amps sold by Adire or some
> other subwoofer amp you may not get to 16 Hz due the high
> pass filter found in most if not all of these type amps.

Thanks for the 'heads up' on beefy amps having High pass filters in them. Looking at Hypex .. the spec says they are 1dB down 14Hz, 3db at 10Hz. If they are able to drive at that rating, I reckon they would be suitable.

I am currently trying to find an amp. I read somewhere that Adire are introducing a more powerful amp, but I couldn't see a release date. Would there be any benefit using a audiophile amp like a Bryston?

>> "Anyone else tried using Tumults for full range speakers.."
> "I don't beleive these drivers will work as full range units."

What I meant to ask was if anyone else had tried to used the Tumults and a HF unit to make a full range speaker!

Cheers,
Antony
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Old 1st September 2004, 04:10 AM   #17
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Nelson,

Thats for the clarifcation on the graphs!

You have amassed a Polar response of the Mangers in your empirical data?

I guess I'm now wondering if the Mangers Beam at Hi Frequencies, and this being the reason that they use 3 Mangers in the HF section of the ZeroBox.

Have you have any fun mounting the Manger in a Spherical enclosure like Cabasse?
http://www.cabasse.com/english/artistc22/index.htm

Cheers,
Antony
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Old 1st September 2004, 05:45 AM   #18
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Vented or Sealed box with Tumult?
========================

Ok ... I've got to make a decision on this one.

The 'bass bin' will be crossed 150Hz (probably 3rd / 4th order)

If I use a Ported design (say tuned to 16Hz), do you think the upper frequencies be compromised / leak out of the port / create delayed resonances / colour the sound?

If I use a sealed design: Do you think you can get enough output at 16hz to satisfy a home theatre? (I will be using two Tumults and so the combined response would be double).

Cheers,
Antony
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Old 1st September 2004, 06:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
I guess I'm now wondering if the Mangers Beam at Hi Frequencies, and this being the reason that they use 3 Mangers in the HF section of the ZeroBox.
You definitely asked the wrong question! It does definitely beam, the question is just how much! I once posted a link to a German forum where someone posted a graphic of the Manger's radiation properties.

The zerobox arrangement with the three drivers is not to avoid beaming but to reduce the effects of baffle step on frequency- and temporal- response.

Have you seen the the Manger system with the subwoofer (Swing and Subsonice) ?

http://www.manger-msw.de/en/produkte/index.html

This is somewhat resembling what you want to do.

Concerning the crossover: Originally Manger uses a first order crossover for the MSW and a third order for the woofer. The woofer is wired out of phase and the crossover frequencies are chosen such that the actual acoustic crossover is where both are 6 dB down. Refering to measurement diagrams that I have seen in German Mags this seems also to be the case for their MSW & SUB arrangement.

Regards

Charles
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Old 1st September 2004, 08:31 AM   #20
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Thanks Charles.

I guess I should have looked at Mangers own subs to see what would go best with them! Sealed boxes look like they are preferred by Manger. I wonder if is that because the 'group delay' is lower for LF? Or maybe its because there is less stored energy, and so less blurring of the sound?

After a quick 'beaming' panic attack .. I saw that Manger make a backward compatible Acoustic lens called a Manger Holophile which I think (guess) scatters the HF around a bit more.
http://www.manger-msw.com/de/imageManger.pdf

BTW: While looking for the Holophile, I ran into the following Manger pdf that gives a good insight into 'perfect' impulse responses.

http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/man...al_reality.pdf

Cheers,
Antony
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