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Old 27th April 2004, 10:48 PM   #41
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Default Re: Charlie the toner

Quote:
Originally posted by SY
I did the experiment myself and confirmed that the toner is quite nonconductive. A square showed greater than 30 meg resistance (the limit of my meter). Pretty much as I thought, but it's nice to actually confirm things in the real world once in a while.

Dang.. I was hoping toner was still carbon based...
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Old 27th April 2004, 11:48 PM   #42
SY is offline SY  United States
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It can still be carbon-based but not conductive, depending on the surface treatment and structure of the carbon particles and their concentration. Nonetheless... dang!
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Old 28th April 2004, 12:34 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prune
"Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich." --Unknown

Sorry to go OT but... nice quote. Unknown is undoubtedly the wisest person I have ever heard of

Anyway, I think I may still look further into toner as a possibility. Something paintable is another possibility.

what about something much more conductive, like a metalized adhesive?

Do we really need to go for a high resistance diaphram (btw, am I even spelling that right?)? Am I off the path thinking that?
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Old 28th April 2004, 12:43 AM   #44
SY is offline SY  United States
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If you're not insulating the stators, you need a high resistance diaphragm in case you hit the limits (and you will!); a low resistance diaphragm will discharge spectacularly, meaning flames and smoke. A high resistance diaphragm under these conditions will just make a small hiss or pop and at worst get a pinhole.

It's a good idea anyway to help you run in constant charge mode. That minimizes distortion.
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Old 28th April 2004, 08:03 AM   #45
Prune is offline Prune  Canada
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I still think quality graphite is the best solution. Another possibility, in case someone hasn't mentioned it, is detergent. Some detergents are slightly conductive even after they dry.

<OT>
johnkramer, I used to have another quote for a sig until the moderators made me change it for being too belligerent. The great physicist Steven Weinberg once said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
</OT>
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Old 28th April 2004, 09:33 AM   #46
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I alternative to perforated matel would be a spider strator. Alot of work but the result would be great

I'm sure someone on the ESL circuit has made one
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Old 28th April 2004, 11:13 AM   #47
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I'm confirming that the toner in my laser printer doesn't conduct. I've got an HP printer with an HP cartridge in it.
Possibly a different brand of toner would give different results. Otherwise, it's back to graphite.
Acoustat used the plastic grids from fluorescent lights for frames and glued wires to them. I've never run across a burned Acoustat. The guy I bought my current house from left behind stacks of those grids. The only problem is that they are difficult to damp mechanically, which leads to the "credit card" sound that some complained of.
Come to think of it, they (Acoustat) had some kind of semi-conductive paint that they used. Any thoughts on the composition of that stuff?

Grey

P.S.: Regarding religion...is it not curious that Bush and company are trying to secularize other governments, whilst busily trying to inject as much religion as possible into ours? I wouldn't feel so threatened if it weren't for the fact that theocracies only seem to excel at oppression and conquest. For the life of me, I can't think of a single nation in all of history that has done great things while under theocratic rule.
Maybe I'll move to Australia.
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Old 28th April 2004, 11:26 AM   #48
Prune is offline Prune  Canada
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Again, I doubt there is any toner out there that conducts. Toners are made of pigment particles that are just about always plastic coated. If you could dissolve away the plastic, the common pigment is carbon black, which is a class 2B (possible human) carcinogen.

Grey, I'm not sure what grids you are talking about. I have a flourescent light in my room and it has no grids. Can you point to a photo?

<OT>Back to the religion thing, PBS has transcripts of two fascinating interviews with Richard Dawkins and Steven Weinberg, who make some insightful observations on the issue.</OT>
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Old 28th April 2004, 12:48 PM   #49
SY is offline SY  United States
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Grey: As it happens, the stators in my speakers are Acoustat. The source of the credit-card sound was, I believe, the rather flimsy mounting that Acoustat used. I've got mine mounted in a rather heavy wooden assembly that provides rigidity and some extra baffling, and guess what? No credit card.

In their original diaphragms, Acoustat used a print treated Mylar with a PTF composition painted on it. The PTF appeared to be just a diluted vinyl/carbon black paint. They apparently used a second composition, much more conductive, for the diaphragm lead-out. When I originally got my panels, the coating was cracking and had a lot of pinholes in it. The cracking was worst for the higher conductivity paint. My hope is that the treatment process and composition I used will be more stable than the original. It is certainly a higher resistance.
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Old 28th April 2004, 01:59 PM   #50
peterr is offline peterr  Netherlands
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A lot of info can be found here The ESL circuit
Look at the ESL CICUIT/Do it yourself/Projects page. And Materials and Parts has a lot of people selling stuff like mylar and coatings.

On stators.
Most people in Holland that build ESLís use wire-stators instead of perforated metal. Like this for instance (not mine, but I have something similar). It is a lot of work but easy to do and all you need are a few rolls (say 500m) of wire.
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