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Old 7th March 2017, 12:19 PM   #21
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OK, this dipole tower has me thinking again, I was looking at the possibility of using one in place of my transmission line, just toying with the idea for now.

There are so many drivers available for an application like this, but the last time I studied specs on them has been over 12 years.
Do any high-performance-to-cost candidates ring a bell right off the bat?
I was looking at FEW's thread where he uses the Dayton RS225-8 inch bass/mids that measure quite well, I was hoping that they made a 6.5 in that line, but if there is one, I couldn't find it.

Like I said, just toying with the idea for now. Using the drivers that FEW did would set me back over 600usd for 6 per side, then again, cost isn't the main consideration..hmmm...

I'll probably just concentrate on the panels for now, but wanted to throw this out there as a running consideration.

Cheers
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Last edited by wreckingball; 7th March 2017 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 8th March 2017, 04:57 AM   #22
Calvin is offline Calvin  Germany
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Hi,

see the RS-180 lineup

jauu
Calvin
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:21 AM   #23
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For metalized Mylar it's reasonable to talk to capacitor makers they may sell overstock/old film.
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Old 9th March 2017, 03:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
Hi,

see the RS-180 lineup

jauu
Calvin
Oh, a 7..nice..
Shouldnt have narrowed the search down as much as I did..
Thanks Calvin

While I'm at it though ...what do you guys think? ..7 or 8?
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Last edited by wreckingball; 9th March 2017 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 9th March 2017, 06:21 AM   #25
Calvin is offline Calvin  Germany
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Hi,

when using a dedicated Subwoofer below say 50Hz and possibly a HP filter for the BAss tower definitely pro the smaller driver.
It sounds alot ´faster´, snappier with improved Kickbass and fits a panel even better.

jauu
Calvin
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Old 12th March 2017, 10:37 PM   #26
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OK, I re-read bengal's thread due to his panel size being similar, and think I have a definite plan, but want to run a few things by everyone.
Proposed panels would be 15x60 inches (380x1525mm), this should be plenty big area-wise, and loud with a 200-250Hz x-over. I thought about 150Hz but think I'll stay at 200-250 for several reasons.
Eleven wires per inch seems standard with the last few builds, I think I'll stick with that.
.0625" also seems good for spacing, check.
For segmentation, I'm thinking Configuration 2 for ease of construction.
Speaking of construction, I've lots of baltic birch, and think this should be strong and stable enough for frames/slats.


Would more in the way of step-up to get healthy SPL be advisable? (I'm assuming) ...as my current step-up is 75:1 IIRC.

I ran some simulations, and this is what it spit out for 150, 200, and 250Hz/fL. (see attachments)
First set at 75:1 (150 & 250Hz/fL), second set at 150:1 (all 3). My bias supply output is 5.1k, so this is the number I punched into line ==>9, I hope that is correct.
Note: I did not delve into the full 'seg_esl_ui' program, I hope using what I did is OK, and the sims are correct, at least in the ballpark.
SPL increases significantly with the 150:1 ratio, I think me likey...


The VTX Transformers seem a good choice for hybrid setups, but I am unsure of which to get, my current two per panel are these:
https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortro...a-0-6v-88-5190
But I thought I saw where bengal ordered these(?):
https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortro...a-0-9v-88-5191
Not entirely sure though...

However, I was reading golfnut's comments on transformers, and thought he said that the 50VA spec was on the large side. (could be wrong)
What's the alternative? ..lower VA with more transformers to achieve desired step-up? (total guess)
I tried following along with one of his posts describing choices, but as soon as the math/symbols start appearing, my eyes glaze over because I do not understand them.
Needless to say, I really need some guidance here.
Maybe a few recommendations with good performance/price ratio?
(I know I know, that's cheating using a shortcut..haha)

Anyway, overall, does the panel size, 150:1 step-up, 5.1k bias, 200-250Hz/fL, D/S etc. Jive with expectation of quality and quantity of sonics? ...seem at least feasible? Am I on the right track?

Enough for now, need to talk to my machinist friend and get going on a jig that will withstand the forces for a panel of this size.

Cheers
-Steve
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 75 at 150Hz.jpg (377.3 KB, 164 views)
File Type: jpg Max with 75 to 1.jpg (412.1 KB, 162 views)
File Type: jpg Max at 150Hz.jpg (382.3 KB, 153 views)
File Type: jpg Max at 200Hz.jpg (382.2 KB, 128 views)
File Type: jpg Max SPL.jpg (378.6 KB, 125 views)
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Last edited by wreckingball; 12th March 2017 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 12th March 2017, 11:51 PM   #27
golfnut is offline golfnut  New Zealand
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Hi wreckingball

Segmented speakers favour transformers with a lower winding capacitance and larger inductance than single segment ESLs, so smaller transformers are better.

Based on some measurements I did a while ago, on some 15VA transformers, you should be able to do well with four 230V/6V transformers.

The six volt rating at 50 Hz (60 Hz) will translate to 24V rating at 200 Hz (240Hz for 60Hz).

Each transformer will give you a 1:38 step up ratio. So put the four 230V windings in series, and the four 6 V windings in parallel to give a 1: 152 step up ratio.

The only catch is to make sure you DO NOT buy transformers with dual winding for 115V and 230 V.

Probably the most available transformer is one with two 6V windings - put the two in parallel. (so you will have eight 6V windings in parallel.)

regards
Rod
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:33 PM   #28
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Thanks for the response, I follow the reasoning and the step-up calc makes sense now..

I picked these out of a couple different types, and they're listed as single 230V, are they correct? /Will work?
https://www.rapidonline.com/vigortro...0-6v-0-88-5180
I hope so, this is a decent price =}
Speaking of which, there is a price break per part with a quantity of 10+..
Now, I saw in the other thread you specifying an even number for each panel, but bolserst posted a workaround that I didn't really look at too closely. (I'll look again)

The workaround was for three, IIRC, but could it work for five I wonder?
Would there be any harm running 5 or an even 6 per panel?

Also, the way I had my electronics situated for my curved panels was in a single box, both sets, two transformers per panel.
I stacked them vertically next to each other, bolted to the bottom plate of box, with thick isolation/shock mounts made of rubber/urethane, and the supplied big washers. (see attachment 1)

Can these toroidals be stacked on their side in a horizontal fashion? Or does that break an electronic rule I'm not aware of..?
And if they can't, do all 4 (or 5-6) need to be stacked? ..or could they be 2-high, next to each other? Follow?

One last (trivial) question for anyone who knows: Does the radiation pattern of an ESL beam straight out, or is there comb filter effect due to the top/bottom of panel being further away from listener, as opposed to the center/ear-level section of the panel? Reason I ask is there's a guy claiming CFE on another forum, no biggie, just wondering... (see attachment 2)

Cheers
-Steve
Attached Images
File Type: jpg esl_case-91234344.jpg (121.4 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg Dispersion.jpg (45.2 KB, 49 views)
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Last edited by wreckingball; 13th March 2017 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:08 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wreckingball View Post
OK, I re-read bengal's thread due to his panel size being similar, and think I have a definite plan, but want to run a few things by everyone.
Proposed panels would be 15x60 inches (380x1525mm), this should be plenty big area-wise, and loud with a 200-250Hz x-over. I thought about 150Hz but think I'll stay at 200-250 for several reasons.
Eleven wires per inch seems standard with the last few builds, I think I'll stick with that.
.0625" also seems good for spacing, check.
For segmentation, I'm thinking Configuration 2 for ease of construction.
Speaking of construction, I've lots of baltic birch, and think this should be strong and stable enough for frames/slats…. Anyway, overall, does the panel size, 150:1 step-up, 5.1k bias, 200-250Hz/fL, D/S etc. Jive with expectation of quality and quantity of sonics? ...seem at least feasible? Am I on the right track?
All sounds good except with D/S = 0.0625” you will want to use a lower bias…something around 3.5kV.

Transformer options:
Here are some links to the tests I performed on Bengel’s transformers:
About to take the ESL plunge
About to take the ESL plunge

An alternative for your project would be a set of transformers from an Acoustat Spectra 11. They have a step-up ratio of 140:1, work great with segmented panels, and can handle over 60Vrms @ 200Hz. They show up from time to time on ebay…actually, I have a pair I will be listing sometime in the near future. If interested, send me a PM.

With fL=200Hz and bias = 3.5kV, a step-up ratio of 150:1 will play louder than 75:1 for a given volume setting, but the maximum peak SPL before you start generating ozone will be the same. The difference will be that you will reach that level at a lower volume setting with the 150:1 than with the 75:1. Basically no matter what combination of bias, step-up ratio, and input voltage you try, you won’t be able to exceed the red curve on the plot without starting to generate ozone. Oh, speaking of the red line, meant to ask if you meant to set the distance to 3m because that is your listening distance? Otherwise, you might set it to 1m so SPL will line up more with sensitivity specs for dynamic drivers.

The spreadsheet has an estimated limit for the amplifier output at which ozone would start to be generated in cell “C30”. When you exceed the limit, the Vin: input cell will be highlighted in red. For the 150:1 you would reach that limit at roughly 27Vrms, pretty close to the typical output of a 100W/8ohm amplifier. For the 75:1 you wouldn’t reach the limit until twice that, or 54Vrm…typical of output from a 350W/8ohm amplifier.

Due to the dynamic nature of music, you can generally use a larger amp than these numbers indicate without generating much ozone. However if you play steady test tones, you will find the limitation a good estimate of when air starts breaking down and ozone generated.
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:12 PM   #30
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Well, I just got an e-mail from Interstate Wire, they checked with 3 different suppliers, and cannot obtain the wire I was after...
Here: WIA-2001-0 - UL AWM Style 1429 | Interstate Wire

This is the wire that Charlie recommended, also I believe the same that bengal used.

Does anyone have another type of wire to recommend? ..when I google the type Calvin posted, I mostly get sites from across the pond, no idea there..

What is it about this specific wire? I seem to remember something about the PVC being cross-linked, IDK?
I'm not sure, I'm afraid..hmmm..

Help?
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