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Old 10th May 2016, 04:10 PM   #1
Big Guy is offline Big Guy  United States
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Default Supertweeter with M-L CLX

Bought a pair of Taket supertweeters (STs) that have a frequency response of 20kHz to 100kHz to supplement the high frequency output of the Martin Logan CLXs which go to 23kHz.
However the STs have a Sensitivity of 70dB vs the 90dB of the CLX.
To integrate the STs, it was recommended that I use an integrated amp between my preamp and the STs in order to set a base level which would then track the CLX volume as set by the preamp.
Other than finding an integrated amp with a frequency response on the order of 100kHz, is there a way to estimate what amp power I would need to adequately compensate for the 20dB lower Sensitivity of the STs?
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Old 10th May 2016, 05:21 PM   #2
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

Off the bat I'd say your wasting your time, if your talking about the Beepure/Batpure.

Any effect, used as intended, simply wired across the speaker is suggestive.

Click the image to open in full size.

Quote : "The effect is appeared even in the speaker of efficiency 100dB/1m."

The above of course is utter nonsense.

FWIW with a limit of 150V no way can you make an amplifier
with 20dB more gain with 75V rails that won't be clipping all
over the place without advanced high pass active filtering.

Its clear what it does. You wire it across your speakers
and convince yourself things have improved. Its a con.

rgds, sreten.

Last edited by sreten; 10th May 2016 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 10th May 2016, 08:36 PM   #3
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Guy View Post
Bought a pair of Taket supertweeters (STs) that have a frequency response of 20kHz to 100kHz to supplement the high frequency output of the Martin Logan CLXs which go to 23kHz.
However the STs have a Sensitivity of 70dB vs the 90dB of the CLX.
To integrate the STs, it was recommended that I use an integrated amp between my preamp and the STs in order to set a base level which would then track the CLX volume as set by the preamp.
Other than finding an integrated amp with a frequency response on the order of 100kHz, is there a way to estimate what amp power I would need to adequately compensate for the 20dB lower Sensitivity of the STs?
hmm you cant even hear 23Khz. no human can. also there is not enough air moved to feel anything so whats the use ?

p.s doubling of power equals +3dB

so for 1 watt on the martin logan equals

2 watt +3 dB= 73
4 watt +3 db= 76
8 watt +3 db= 79
16 watt +3 db= 82
32 watt +3 db= 85
64 watt +3 db= 88
128 watt +3 db= 91dB

well 128 watts but only when you play the martin at 1 watt haha make it 10 and you end up with 1280 watt for your tweeter you cant hear

Last edited by WrineX; 10th May 2016 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 10th May 2016, 09:28 PM   #4
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

FWIW though I think its utterly pointless said tweeter is > 4Kohm impedance.

At 150V peak to peak max that equates to a rather pathetic < 3W.

If I was going for it, a bespoke OTL valve amplifier would be
my choice, but I'm sure it could be done with transistors.

Thing is, if your main amplifiers can swing say +/- 40V,
then there is no hope of realistically making up 20dB,
6dB higher hits +/- 80V, and it gets worse the
higher the power output of your main amplifiers.

rgds, sreten.

Last edited by sreten; 10th May 2016 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 10th May 2016, 09:54 PM   #5
MPS is offline MPS  Finland
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Step-up transformer supplying ST connected parallel to CLX?
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Old 10th May 2016, 11:55 PM   #6
Big Guy is offline Big Guy  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrineX View Post
hmm you cant even hear 23Khz. no human can. also there is not enough air moved to feel anything so whats the use ?

p.s doubling of power equals +3dB

so for 1 watt on the martin logan equals

2 watt +3 dB= 73
4 watt +3 db= 76
8 watt +3 db= 79
16 watt +3 db= 82
32 watt +3 db= 85
64 watt +3 db= 88
128 watt +3 db= 91dB

well 128 watts but only when you play the martin at 1 watt haha make it 10 and you end up with 1280 watt for your tweeter you cant hear
What got me started on this was the paper...
There's life above 20 kilohertz! A survey of musical instrument spectra to 102.4 kHz

Studies have been done that suggest that there is an effect of ultrasonic frequencies on those with the human audible range. One such is...
PLOS ONE: Frequencies of Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Differentially Affect Brain Activity: Positive and Negative Hypersonic Effects

If you read the promotional information of the various commercially available supertweeters, this effect is also noted. A respected equipment (not speakers) manufacturer friend of mine indicates to me that he feels that something is missing when he listens without supertweeters.

On the flip (of frequency) side, many audiophiles use subwoofers that go subsonic even though these frequencies cannot be heard. Those running supertweeters report that supersonics are similarly felt if not actually heard. While generally accepted "tribal knowledge" is that bass frequencies below 60Hz cannot be localized, studies have shown that this number is actually more like 30Hz.

It appears to be less a matter of hearing these frequencies themselves but how they impact those within the audible range.

That being said, I appreciate that an amp of sufficient power will be required though I can say that I confirmed the contribution of the supertweeters albeit at frequencies of approx 15-20kHz using typical listening level settings on my preamp.
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Old 14th May 2016, 05:37 PM   #7
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

You can confirm they make some noise below 20KHz, but cannot
convince me at "about" 70dB they do anything actually useful.
An amplifier of sufficient voltage swing to make up 20dB of gain
will simply fry them due to overvoltage, it just won't sensibly fly.

A step transformer is a good idea, however it will fry them.

rgds, sreten.

Last edited by sreten; 14th May 2016 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 14th May 2016, 05:55 PM   #8
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I'm using Raven R 2 ribbons on my CLX , much easier to pad down , hang them with fishing line at ear height behind the cells. I'll post some pictures
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Old 14th May 2016, 07:44 PM   #9
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Do you hear any difference? I've got a pair of Sequel 2 so would be interested.
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Old 15th May 2016, 03:07 PM   #10
Big Guy is offline Big Guy  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticknpop View Post
I'm using Raven R 2 ribbons on my CLX , much easier to pad down , hang them with fishing line at ear height behind the cells. I'll post some pictures
Pics would be great. Seems like the R1, R2 and maybe even R3 have been discontinued as indicated on Dayton Audio website.

Could not find specs for the R2 or others. Know of a link?
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