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Old 30th September 2015, 06:08 PM   #1
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Default Resonance Quad Panels !

Hi i measured some panels for my ESL63 , and i discovered that original panels res (while under high voltage) is around 70 hertz.

now my question is. as far as i know they use the same panels in the ESL 63 ESL 988 and the 989 (i think even in the latest model) they all reach lower then the ESL63. but how ?>?>? ofc they got more surface area. but still they got a res around 70hz how can the 989 reach 40 hertz ? must be minus several dB. or did they just reconfigured there filters.


woukld be more effective if the panels of a 989 would have a res of around 40-50. but then again membrane stability could be a problem. and since everyone is just swapping them around. it looks like they are the same. anyone ever measured a single panel of a 989 or a 988 ?

Last edited by WrineX; 30th September 2015 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 30th September 2015, 08:07 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by WrineX View Post
Hi i measured some panels for my ESL63 , and i discovered that original panels res (while under high voltage) is around 70 hertz.
Are you measuring one panel by itself in free air? or mounted with the other panels in the baffle with all panels playing.
The airload increases significantly due to mutual coupling when several panels are mounted next to each other which will lower resonance frequency. The small baffle edges around the perimeter of the frame also increase the airload. I had posted a measurement in the AMT thread showing that adding baffle edges to a small panel lowered resonance by ~10%...mutual coupling has an even greater effect.
Electrostatic AMT?

According Baxandall ESL chapter and Walker AES paper, resonance frequency of the ESL63 panel array should be about 45 - 50 Hz.
Full Range Electrostatic Question
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Old 30th September 2015, 10:57 PM   #3
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Hmm nice interesting bolsert as usually !

i measured 2 panels standing upright (free air), just for comparison for spl. i wanted my panels to be exactly as loud. (witch i managed thank god ) but the resonance of one original panel standing upright is 70 hz +- witch baffled me. but now this explains allot. its good to know it has to be around 70 when i test panels separately.

so a 989 uses 6 panels and resonance drops with 10 hz , thats why it can reach 40 instead of the 50 of the esl63

looks like it drops 5 hz with every panel added. at least this goes for 1 to 4 from 70 to 50 and as wel from 50 to 40 with 6 panels
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Old 30th September 2015, 11:09 PM   #4
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Something diff................bolsert .....can you help ?........if I have a tranfourmer running in a tube bais setup...........that has 120 ac primary side......an 6V output on the secdary side.......this tranfourmer can get vary warm..................
the bass tran in the 121interfaces.....or othere ESL ......like soundlabs....Ml.....well these trans ever get hot..................an still work?.................why??
thanks
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Old 30th September 2015, 11:36 PM   #5
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Oh u i did measure the panels one by one , not together ofcourse or else i might have gotten 65 hz
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Old 3rd October 2015, 04:06 PM   #6
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Something diff................bolsert .....can you help ?........if I have a tranfourmer running in a tube bais setup...........that has 120 ac primary side......an 6V output on the secdary side.......this tranfourmer can get vary warm..................
the bass tran in the 121interfaces.....or othere ESL ......like soundlabs....Ml.....well these trans ever get hot..................an still work?.................why??
I think this might win a prize for most off-topic post

Transformers get hot because of power lost as heat in the windings:
Power loss = (winding resistance) * (current)^2

With power transformers like the 6V filament transformer you mentioned, the input voltage is a steady known value. So the transformer is usually designed to work within temperature ratings of the wire insulation using minimum amount of iron and copper to save money for the manufacturer. If they used more iron and/or copper the transformer would run cooler, but they wouldn't make as much money selling the transformer.

ESL transformers do not have a steady input voltage. Music has a large Peak/RMS ratio. Usually the ESL transformers are not designed to handle Peak output voltage for sustained periods of time. If you applied maximum peak output possible from music (40 - 50 Vrms @ 30Hz) for a sustained period of time the windings would burn up on the Acoustat bass transformer before you felt the core of the transformer getting warm. Fortunately music doesn't have this type of sustained voltages so the windings have time to cool off between bass peaks.

If you put in a steady lower voltage (15Vrms @ 60 Hz into the Acoustat bass transformers for an hour you would feel them getting warm.
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Old 3rd October 2015, 04:25 PM   #7
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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thanks for any an all info on ESL...................did not mean to drift to far........for give me
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Old 4th October 2015, 05:09 PM   #8
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Yes the panels is the same.
Thats why i have 9 pairs esl63 in the basement :-)
Electrically no cange, different layout on the circuit boards. Better?
No.. I would guess worse.
In Esl 63 the HV circuit board was dipped in Bees wax to get ridge of creepage currents.
Works fine even in humidity. Today they have increased the distances between the components, better? I doubt.. cheeper yes.
Mechanically the new ones is much much more rigid and better. But to increase the stiffness of the 63s is not that difficult. Resonance. Each panel has a wery fine mesh which have a huge impact of the resonance Q value. I know of no other electrostatic speaker with this feature.
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Old 4th October 2015, 05:46 PM   #9
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Ok so panels itself all the same res freq. ofc al else is different but that don't matter thx for the ryplies. Especially by bolster for the reason why it does lower res. thx. !
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Old 4th October 2015, 10:07 PM   #10
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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"If you put in a steady lower voltage (15Vrms @ 60 Hz into the Acoustat bass transformers for an hour you would feel them getting warm"

is that Primary & Secondary sides well get warm???.......or just primary.........................thanks
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