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Old 17th April 2014, 09:46 PM   #11
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jumping between horns and dipoles is not a bipolar brain disorder

DIVERSITY ... best describes the loudspeaker market.

The power response of a speaker is the total of both its off-axis and on-axis amplitude response. It is the total acoustical power that is radiated into space. Many believe that the total radiated acoustic power by the speaker system should be constant over as wide a frequency range as possibly. Apogee Full Range, Linkwitz LX531, JohnK NoteII... well reviewed dipole speakers maintain a dipole ratiation pattern over a very wide frequency range.

Dipole and Cardiod and Horn speaker push more of their acoustic power at_the_listener than into_the_room. This is heard as greater clarity and dynamics by most listeners.

The on axis, free space directivity factor for sound sources with several common free space radiation patterns are as follows: Monopole: DF = 1.0, Dipole: DF = 3, Cardioid: DF = 3, 90x90 Horn: DF=8.27. What this means is that if these three different sources are to radiate the same total acoustic power then if the monopole has an on axis intensity of 1.0 the dipole and cardioid will have an on axis intensity of 3.0 or 4.77 dB greater, and the horn will have an on axis intensity of 8.27 or 9.2 dB greater. Conversely, if the difference sources are to have the same on axis intensity then the dipole and cardioid will radiate 1/3 the acoustic power of the monopole, and the horn 1/9 the acoustic power of the monopole. When studying room acoustics and reverberation this means that the "critical distance" from the speaker will be greater for a dipole or cardioid or horn than for a monopole. The "critical distance" is the distance at which direct and reflected sound are equal. The level of the reflected sound, above the modal region of the room, is usually considered constant and proportional to the total radiated power. Thus when sitting the same distance from a conventional speaker and a dipole/horn, the dipole/horn can potentially sound more detailed since at the position that ratio of direct to reflected sound is greater.

When DF is not frequency dependent, it would follow that a monopole midrange or satellite speaker should be match with a monopole woofer, a dipole with a dipole, and a horn with a horn.
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Old 18th April 2014, 04:59 AM   #12
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LineSource, tell me which is the most powerfull and best bass in my 33'x80' room, Apogee Diva's or Acoustat 2+2's? . Al
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Old 18th April 2014, 06:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaStar View Post
LineSource, tell me which is the most powerfull and best bass in my 33'x80' room, Apogee Diva's or Acoustat 2+2's? . Al
Apogee Diva have superior bass than Acoustat 2+2.... I have heard both in a few different rooms. Got Watts?

From Absolute Sound review by Anthony Cordesman:

"At Sound By Singer, the Apogee Divas had excellent bass power, extension, and definition. They lacked the Infinity IRS Series V's and Duntech Sovereign 2001's sheer ability to move air, but they went very low indeed and did so with remarkable speed and control. The Divas exhibited excellent bass performance at high levels down to about 25Hz. In fact, the Divas nearly matched the IRS Series V in being able to deliver the entire bass without any coloration or power loss in the mid-bass and the upper bass/lower midrange. Baritone voice, cello, piano, and bass guitar all had excellent performance-with the exception of some minor irregularities in bass response. The Diva in my home system has shown me that these irregularities are the inevitable cost of trying to place a full-range bipolar speaker in anything but very large or specially treated rooms.

The bass of the Divas had a very fast attack with excellent control. This speaker did not quite have as much power in the deep bass as the IRS or Sovereign and could not resolve individual bass frequencies quite as well as the IRS, but this would only be apparent in comparatively few recordings. What is important is that the Apogee Divas have the right balance of bass energy without overhang or exaggeration. This came through quite clearly in listening to Jazz at the Pawn Shop, Grusin's "Fratelli Chase," and a wide range of other material where natural bass is more important than sheer bass impact. With the right setup, the bass of the Apogee Divas can sound like live music at virtually every listening level short of deafening-and with virtually any kind of music material."
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Old 18th April 2014, 06:48 AM   #14
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Well in my big room the Acoustats out perform the Diva's, in the smaller room 25'x33 , the Diva's are better than the Acoustats, HP wasn't keen on the Diva's in his review, he liked the Infinity RS4.5 better which was his reference at the time .
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Old 18th April 2014, 07:19 AM   #15
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Back then, I heard the Scintilla, Duetta and Diva with amps such as Krell, Levinson and Rowland, and these ribbons never have a balanced sound, it is so bass heavy!

In the review, AHC contradicted himself by fist raved about Apogee bass then later stated that it does have bass irregularities!

If you like bass then you might like these speakers, but if you want a balanced sound, you might have to look elsewhere. I remmenber somebody tested these Apogee and found out the speakers has a bass peak of 10db or more!!!

Linesource: it is amazing to me that your mathematical description of bipolar/horn speakers is exactly what I heard in the Acoustat/horn setup: clarty, speed, detailed sound , additionally the "venetian blind" effect of Acoustat (which I believe is Acoustat major weakness) been eliminated when the Tad/horn take over at 900Hz.

Blgtrio: tomorrow I am picking up a pair of 2+2 (I was actually looking for another pr of 1+1 to use on both side of the horn) should be very interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
Apogee Diva have superior bass than Acoustat 2+2.... I have heard both in a few different rooms. Got Watts?

From Absolute Sound review by Anthony Cordesman:

"At Sound By Singer, the Apogee Divas had excellent bass power, extension, and definition. They lacked the Infinity IRS Series V's and Duntech Sovereign 2001's sheer ability to move air, but they went very low indeed and did so with remarkable speed and control. The Divas exhibited excellent bass performance at high levels down to about 25Hz. In fact, the Divas nearly matched the IRS Series V in being able to deliver the entire bass without any coloration or power loss in the mid-bass and the upper bass/lower midrange. Baritone voice, cello, piano, and bass guitar all had excellent performance-with the exception of some minor irregularities in bass response. The Diva in my home system has shown me that these irregularities are the inevitable cost of trying to place a full-range bipolar speaker in anything but very large or specially treated rooms.

The bass of the Divas had a very fast attack with excellent control. This speaker did not quite have as much power in the deep bass as the IRS or Sovereign and could not resolve individual bass frequencies quite as well as the IRS, but this would only be apparent in comparatively few recordings. What is important is that the Apogee Divas have the right balance of bass energy without overhang or exaggeration. This came through quite clearly in listening to Jazz at the Pawn Shop, Grusin's "Fratelli Chase," and a wide range of other material where natural bass is more important than sheer bass impact. With the right setup, the bass of the Apogee Divas can sound like live music at virtually every listening level short of deafening-and with virtually any kind of music material."
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Last edited by Unison845; 18th April 2014 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 18th April 2014, 10:29 AM   #16
blgtrio is offline blgtrio  United States
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Default Acoustat 2+2

Hi Unison845, Congrats on your 2+2's! They will be an easier load on your amp compared to the 1+1's. Let us know how they sound once they are up and running?
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Old 19th April 2014, 06:51 AM   #17
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Blgtrio,

I got the 2+2 today and setup in my room to compare with the 1+1. Playing it with a pair of 845PP, I notice the 2+2 is more efficient, from bass up to mid, it is much better than the 1+1, sounds much fuller. I will try to integrate them with a TAD/horn pretty soon.

PS: I also pick up a pair of Acoustat Servo amp, will get them update with new caps before power them up, would be interesting to compare the Servo amp against my 845PP direct coupled to the Acoustat.

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Originally Posted by blgtrio View Post
Hi Unison845, Congrats on your 2+2's! They will be an easier load on your amp compared to the 1+1's. Let us know how they sound once they are up and running?
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Old 19th April 2014, 01:06 PM   #18
blgtrio is offline blgtrio  United States
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Default 2+2's

Unison845, I owned the 2+2's back in 1986 till 2002. I sold them to fund a horn project. I will be taking delivery of the 2+2's I came across in the next month. The guy is delivering them to me, so just waiting for his schedule to work out. I'm glad you are enjoying the 2+2's. I 've read several discussions about the servo amps vs. MK-121. I'll be anxious to hear your opinionon the servo's once you get them back and running.
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Old 19th April 2014, 02:52 PM   #19
blgtrio is offline blgtrio  United States
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Default Acoustat 6's

Unison845, have you played the 1+1's and rhe 2+2's together at the same time. It would be like having model 6's. I'll bet the wall of sound is huge and the bass is shaking the room. I used to run my 2+2's and 1+1's together and it was awesome. I'm looking forward to doing it again.
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Old 19th April 2014, 04:52 PM   #20
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blgtrio and Unison845 What size of room are you using for the 2+2's in ?
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