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Old 27th January 2014, 07:15 AM   #1
jakja83 is offline jakja83  Norway
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Default Dipole AMT/Ribbon or similar for OB? DAyton?

I am looking for a dipole mid-tweeter that can x-over a bit lower than most, preferably 1.5 khz or lower.

My budget is a bit strained so I looked at these from Dayton Audio: Dayton Audio AMTPRO-4 Air Motion Transformer Tweeter 4 Ohm

Any experience with these versus pricier AMTs?
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Old 27th January 2014, 07:25 AM   #2
hm4nine is offline hm4nine  Europe
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How about this?:

ESS AMT Heil Tweeter Pair "We Have The Lowest Price" | eBay
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Old 27th January 2014, 08:03 AM   #3
jakja83 is offline jakja83  Norway
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Would the ESS Heil be better? I was wondering about the controlled dispersion in a dipole design, would the ESS be better?
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Old 27th January 2014, 09:09 AM   #4
Eldam is online now Eldam  France
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The ESS can't go lower than 2khz/ 2.5 khz to avoid distorsions....
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Old 27th January 2014, 02:46 PM   #5
hm4nine is offline hm4nine  Europe
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Default Dipole AMT/Ribbon or similar for OB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldam View Post
The ESS can't go lower than 2khz/ 2.5 khz to avoid distorsions....
Thatís wrong:

When ESS combined its AMT with a 12ď woofer plus 12ď passive radiator in the seventies, crossover frequency was 1800Hz/18dB/Oct.

Nowadays they go down to 800Hz (see below)
http://www.essspeakersusa.com/ESS_FINAL.pdf
And a friend of mine uses it above 1400Hz with 24dB-Linkwith_Rigley filter.

If you donít believe in its sonic qualities, may be the link below changes your mind:
[Review] ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer - [English]

The AMT is by far one of the best tweeters in the world which was ever designed. Because it has a rather large area (like a standard 8ď-speaker) it will distort much later then most other tweeters.
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Old 27th January 2014, 03:54 PM   #6
Eldam is online now Eldam  France
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You wrong, look at all the reviews and the waterfalls !

You can go at 1800 at the price of distorsion and break up material...

It's wrong too going above around 1000 hz with a 12" because of directivity and too slower cone in relation to the ESS, here you must go with a planar ŗ la NEO 10 below, or a 2" CD or if you can't a less than 10 g paper cone 5 to 8". I hear some ess with 12"... ridiculous setup; Sorry it's an old known fact that ESS + 12" are a poor match.

I think plasma tweeter ARE the best tweeters if it has a sense to classify the drivers...

Last edited by Eldam; 27th January 2014 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 27th January 2014, 06:57 PM   #7
hm4nine is offline hm4nine  Europe
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@Eldam

Jakja83's question was not for cone break up from woofers or for exotic tweeters:
He asked for an affordable tweeter which can go down to at least 1,5kHz.

The ESS AMT fulfills both targets, if you like it or not. Its distortion and waterfall diagram can be found in internet and can withstand all comparisons with most tweeters.

If you would kindly reread my words perhaps you will see that my examples refer to how deep the AMT can go down and NOT how high its neighbouring loudspeaker has to go....
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Old 27th January 2014, 09:34 PM   #8
Eldam is online now Eldam  France
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Wes I understand.

1,5 khz is too low because of a bump in the waterfall at 1800 to 2000 (depend on concistency during product process) and non damped movement with the polyethylen material of the ribon around 1000 than can be heard above ! Here we are not talking about impedance but breakup, airflow in the V load, and distorsions and level.

I never say it's bad tweeter, I believe it's a good tweeter not a mid tweeter. Many serious reviewers talk about 1,5k in theory but advise to beginn at 2000 and often don't like what the hear below 2200 to 2500 (depend on the concistency). In 70s' we try to stack 2 to 4 ESS to go lower than 1000... 800 hz... without true sucess.

Maybe now with electronic xover you can try between 1800 and more with high order slope... maybe 1500 LR4... but I doubt !

The reviewer would keep the ESS but had something between the 12" not to waste the both drivers...IMHO. A B&G NEO 8s or NEO10.

Peace !
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Old 28th January 2014, 10:25 AM   #9
hm4nine is offline hm4nine  Europe
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ESS as manufacturer itsself uses the AMT down to 800Hz (see below); but if you think to have advanced knowledges, you should inform ESS....

The Heil Air Motion Transformer (AMT) uses a folded pleated Mylar Diaphragm of a mere 0.0005” thickness! The voice coil is a serpentine pattern of precision etched aluminum chosen for light weight and high power handling. Unlike a normal piston loudspeaker which excites the air by alternately pushing and pulling the diaphragm, the AMT displaces the air by alternately squeezing and expanding the pleats, moving the air at a very high velocity. Because the moving mass of the AMT is extremely low, and the magnetic structure very powerful, this combination results in extremely high acceleration yielding amazing transients. The AMT's low mass and high output allow for a unusually high combination of efficiency and bandwidth to be attained in a single loudspeaker. The AMT is a dipolar transducer, meaning like a real musical instrument, it creates as much sound to the front as it does to the rear, allowing for a more natural and musical ambiance to be heard in your listening room. The shape of this diaphragm allows for wide dispersion in the horizontal axis, but tightly controlled vertical dispersion. This creates a wide sound-stage while simultaneously minimizing unwanted reflections from floor and ceiling. Ess is the manufacturer of the original and still best Air Motion Transformer invented by Dr. Oskar Heil over 30 years ago. The AMT is able to efficiently reproduce frequencies over the very wide range of 500 to 20,000 Hz. The minimum recommended crossover frequency is 800 Hz at 12db/octave or more.
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Old 28th January 2014, 10:49 AM   #10
Eldam is online now Eldam  France
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If the manufacterer said it.... of course it's a proof !

i have no interest here and nothing to sell. Keep yours certainties... We are all going to sell ours speakers to go with an ESS AMT with an XO at 800hz LR2 (lol) or 1500hz (less lol but lol again) ! Miracle we have the mid-tweeter than everybody had not seen before and that nobody test before !

The only true fact here is that the ESS is far better than the Dayton. And you need an Electro magnet speaker to have the lower QTS and reactivity to match the ESS because of its fastness. Or a very light cone or better planar or CD. many people try it before and didn't stop to the manufacturer manuel ! Each time I heard it with a too low XO there were problems.... Theory is not reality !

Finally i think ESS AMT is a good bargain but hard to match. The OP may test too anothers ribbons or magnet speakers if 1500 or lower is really needed : Neo 8s planar (but need a tweeter above 4 khz) or an expensive Mundorf AMT (not the little one but the big one)... but the price !
IMHO of course... not my universal knowledge, just my test and the tests of some serious people (la Revue de l'Audiophile; Klang german reviews, some experiments of people here and elsewhere)

I think I will stop know to argue with you but go in peace, it's not important after all!

Last edited by Eldam; 28th January 2014 at 10:59 AM.
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