Dipole AMT/Ribbon or similar for OB? DAyton? - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 28th January 2014, 11:32 AM   #11
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sweden
How does the Heil AMT compare to an electrostatic panel (both theoretically and subjectively sound wise)? The diaphragm of an ESL can be as thin as 3.5 um (compared to the Heil's 12 um if my maths are correct). Which construction typically exercise the highest force per effective panel area unit, and which has the lowest distortion?

Thanks.
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Old 29th January 2014, 01:02 AM   #12
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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After using the Heil since the seventies, diehard heil fan here, my preference is a xo around 2800-3000hz with a second order filter. I did indeed try lower frequencies along the road. 800hz ... nah. 1200hz at lower listening levels maybe ... 1800hz ... pretty good except that some instruments, for instance a baritone sax, may sound a bit "bright" even with a forth order slope. etc etc .. on and on to where I'm at now with the xo.

To my ear that range adds just enough life to the lower 6" midrange I use, due to the shallower sloped filter, without sounding strained. Above those frequencies I find no issues. It's a unique driver for sure.
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Old 4th February 2014, 01:14 PM   #13
Gary B is offline Gary B  United States
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With all due respect, I don't like the large ESS AMT's crossed lower than 6k. Cross it lower and the sound becomes thin. Above 6k, it's the best tweeter I've ever heard.
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Old 6th March 2014, 02:45 PM   #14
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puppet,
glad you came on this thread - there is no equal to empirical work carried out over decades, I'm also a 'good old boy'.

This will be my first (and I hope my last) speaker project, so I don't presume to pronounce but just to ask questions.

I bought a pair of Grand Heils from a mate on another forum, must be 10 years ago and never really had the chance to build OBs with them until now.

I did'nt/don't want to consider using a three-way, would much prefer a two-way using fast 15" woofers. I think I have found what I am looking for and are favoured for OB duty @100db, these woofers operate from 48hz - 4kHz. I will be using an active x/over, either a Berhinger or a Rod Elliot.

I remember reading threads some years ago which said that the Heils don't like to be enclosed and that using a 'back plate' some 10-12" behind the unit gave a better response. I would appreciate any comments on this arrangement, especially on baffle size. I should add I am going to build our own home (retired builder) and we will each have our own personal room, in my case specifically to listen to music so WAF is irrelevant. All comments welcome.
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Old 7th March 2014, 02:38 AM   #15
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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Black Stuart ... a two-way w/15" driver and the heil sort of puts you in "no mans land" with the xo. I view the heil much like a compression driver. As such, you'd want the hand off between the cone and heil to match polar directivity as close as possible. Both a 12" and 15" will be beaming way before you'd want to xo to the heil. Off axis response of the cone drivers will be a mess. I don't think a lot of people listen to OB on axis.

On OB, the cone driver ... even a 12" ... will need a fair bit of eq to meet the heil in its decent operating frequency range and be on a baffle large enough (with eq) to support decent bass reproduction. Not easily done. With a 15" woofer, I'd be thinking three-way.

As far as a baffled heil goes .. I don't care for it. It's more "in your face" quality is contrary to my enjoyment of the OB experience. My preference is for all the drivers to work as seamlessly as possible. The multiway systems your seeing designed lately don't push any of the drivers out of their comfort zone yielding a more natural sound as a whole. There's certainly something to be learned there.

You could go with the audax pro mid driver which is supposed to work well on OB. A 15", the audax with the heil on top would be a pretty good start for your OB mains. 3-4 ways are more work but it's a fun process. A flexible xo is also a huge help.

You could goggle "EDGE" software and experiment with that program. EDGE will give you an idea of baffle/driver size/position and how they might effect frequency response which would help in getting a grasp on realistic xo points and sane eq levels.
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Old 8th March 2014, 11:39 AM   #16
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Hi puppet,
thanks for your input. The reason I bought the G/Hs off my friend was I had a chance to listen to his AMT1s, I think that was the model no. Anyway they were original ESS and had the 12"woofers and passive radiators - they sounded very good or I would'nt have bought his spare pair + original passive x/overs. These usewd as you know a 2 way x/over.

re. flexible x/overs the Behringer is just that.

I would have liked a response to the 'back plate idea', this is especially useful with transducers that are not in a box, as they have nothing to 'flex/push the sound waves against.

I do not intend to mount the G/Hs onto the baffle as there could well be interference from the woofer. It's why I think a one piece arm on a deck is a bad idea - there is nothing to stop resonances travelling through the arm to the cartridge. Sadly there is a lot of antiquated b/s still prevalent in audio most of it to make more profit for manufacturers -that was the reason that high density chipboard was abandoned for MDF in speakers cabinets, since HDC blunted cutting tools much faster than MDF.

I don't have any welding gear so will get a friend to build me a gantry so that I can effectively 'hang' the the Heils from, ergo zero interference from the woofers. This way I can alter the height and distance of the Heils from woofer.

It's why I have no fixed idea about baffle size and design. There are a few speaker designs that effectively use transducers which are mounted in a skeleton type arrangement, this experimentation is my idea of fun. It also will allow me to inter-act to best effect with the 'character' of the room.

I might just be persuaded to go 3 way but 4 way - no way, it would then get complicated and that is not for me. As you say it can be fun for some.

I could well be completely wrong about everything but as I was/ an innovative constructor whose ideas have in practice worked I'd like to give my ideas in this field a chance. I can always admit I was wrong and retrace my steps.
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