Getting feet wet with first planer - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Planars & Exotics

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st October 2013, 09:03 AM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hamburg
Default I was far too general in my statement. Please see clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
If someone compared my ESLs to Quads and told me the above right in the face, Iīd narcotize him, get all the blob and smear out of his ears, wake him up and have him listen properly.
Compared to the moving coil speakers (and variance of) I think it is fair to say all ESL speakers sound similar, but you are quiet right stating they are not the same. In my experience some ESL speakers sound better than others. I also should state that I have not heard your designs. Judging from your posts your designs are very highly optimized. That is not what I said and I apologize.

In my experience Quad ESL 63 and ESL 57 models do sound different, and clearly a 1960's Stax headphone I have, has less Bass than a Stax Lambda Pro I also own. I would also say that Martin Logan speakers sound a little different too. Also a reconditioned Quad ESL 57 sounds different from an old one with 50 year old panels with arcing problems.

What I meant to say is I think nearly all ESL speakers sound more similar to each other than when compared with good moving coil speakers. Also in my opinion all ESL speakers I have experienced sound better in the sweet spot, and worse off axis.

I have heard a single ended ESL speaker (all the others where push pull designs) that sounded worse than all ESL speakers I have ever heard, but still sounded better than any tweeter I had ever heard, but that was a long time ago and I may be misrepresenting the situation.

I believe at least geometry, stator design and electrostatic force, between stators, surface resistivity of diaphragms, diaphragm tension, all contribute to the differences in sound quality in ESL speakers, but with acceptable quality ESL speakers, in my experience they all sound more similar to lifelike sounds than any moving coil speaker and in that respect the differences between acceptable ESL speakers are small.

My own simple ESL headphone/tweeter that I built sounded very good, and more similar to ESL 57's than ESL 63's in a good way, even though I just chucked it together and it was not very optimized, but still sounded noticeably better to my mind than moving coil speakers.

I think Peter Walker (designer of Quad speakers) said something to the effect that: It was not hard to make better ESL speakers than Quad made, only hard to make them in mass production, with a semi skilled work force and with a high degree of consistency, at a low price.

I suggest though that unless people can audition your speakers next to another high quality ESL speaker, the listener will have little difference between their memories of sound quality. Because a very lifelike and very very lifelike is hard to hold in ones memory, where as all but one or two moving coil speakers where at best vaguely lifelike. I am sure you disagree, and feel that the difference is clearly audible, but your a speaker designer specializing in ESL models and so are listening for ESL speaker failing.

I would love to hear your speakers one day Calvin, Sadly I have never heard your speaker designs. From your posting I believe compared to Quad designs your less focused on low price and mass production, and more on sound quality, and I have no doubt you have made some ESL speakers very worthy of audition, I would be very surprised if your models don't sound great, and appreciate the help you make to this group.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2013, 11:02 AM   #12
Calvin is offline Calvin  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Calvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: close to Basel
Hi,

hey Owen .. no pun intended, just jokin..
I understood fully what You meant in first place, but others with lower or no experience with ESLs might misunderstand You.
After my experience seemingly all ESLs exhibit a kind of reproduction quality that differentiates them from dynamic speakers, the more obvious so the larger the panel and the larger its bandwidth range.
Itīs the mids and to a degree the highs where no dynamic speaker can sound as natural and authentic as a well built ESL.
It is this special mids-quality that anybody recognizes instantly on first listening and that keeps us Planaristi at these enigmatic devices.
But within the group of ESLs You find everything from low quality to SotA.

jauu
Calvin
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2013, 05:30 PM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hamburg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
But within the group of ESLs You find everything from low quality to SotA.
Thanks for the follow up.

I am clearly not down with the kids, I had to look up "SotA".

I am guessing the definition I found for SOTA is correct "State Of The Art":
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2013, 09:56 PM   #14
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by owenhamburg View Post
Quad ESL 57's should not be driven with more than 30 W, and Quad ESL 63's with not more than 100 W, I believe some different design decisions where taken by most USA ESL speaker designers, who opted for more inefficient speakers needing slightly higher powered amplifiers.

Best regards

Owen
Refurbished 57, can do alot more than 30 watts with no issues , same for 63...
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2013, 10:04 PM   #15
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
Hi,


If someone compared my ESLs to Quads and told me the above right in the face, Iīd narcotize him, get all the blob and smear out of his ears, wake him up and have him listen properly.
Itīd be as if he couldnīt notice the difference in acceleration between an old īDuckī the C2V and a modern race car.

jauu
Calvin
I always mistook yours for a 57 .....
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2013, 09:54 AM   #16
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Md
I did not know a 2Cv could accelerate.

I unfortunately do not have the floor space for a large ESL. That is why I was looking at tweeters. It has been a long time since I heard Quads. I had two friends with 57's. MV50's, PV5's. One with an SP-12/Denon, the other a SOTA/Denon. They would argue for hours on the differences in the tables. I remember them to be very nice. No bass, no treble, but the mids were wonderful.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2013, 12:01 AM   #17
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: At home, sweet sound home...
About 2CV, duration & performance. When you tense yourself the diagphram like a 6 micron one for your ESL: what is the duration of such work ? Do you have to change the diaphragm all the 5 years, 2 years , 10 years. Is it a question of surface : bigger more fragile ?

I saw a link showed by a fellow here (Jazz...) with normal stators you can remove with magnets.
Is it the same with another magneplanars like Magneplanar or B&G big or small drivers ? Do they have the same sounding qualities 10 years after (assuming our ears change too in ten yeras !)

Have two planars speaker to be new for benchmark their sounding qualities ?

Last edited by Eldam; 10th October 2013 at 12:05 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2013, 04:34 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hamburg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldam View Post
About 2CV, duration & performance. When you tense yourself the diagphram like a 6 micron one for your ESL: what is the duration of such work ? Do you have to change the diaphragm all the 5 years, 2 years , 10 years. Is it a question of surface : bigger more fragile ?
I think it is possible for ESL loud speakers to last many years without any change in performance.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Getting feet wet Gpa7 Full Range 0 7th August 2012 03:13 AM
Getting My Feet Wet - Advice/Suggestions? The Shaman Chip Amps 16 22nd June 2004 04:20 PM
Planer 3 Esra Yeknom Analogue Source 11 29th January 2004 06:14 AM
Getting my feet wet with PSUD Saurav Tubes / Valves 22 26th April 2003 03:12 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:38 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Đ1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2