If you had a lot of ESL panels.... - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Planars & Exotics

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 5th August 2013, 02:03 AM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto and Delray Beach, FL
Being the last kid on my block to go stereo, I experimented some. I still have a University transformer that does tricks with a central speaker and satellite wings. Betcha not too many folks can remember what a "Bauer" circuit does? If you understand what it is all about and why and why not, no need to read any more of this post.

Yes, a large and very deeply mathematical literature on stereo imaging following Blumlein. Too deep by far for me follow. And whazzat "kunstkopf" recording theory, if I have the name right?

My impression is that the basic issues have to do with human perception and which cues matter to our brain and which don't.... which obviously is a question not answered by math. That's because there aint no way to put Carnegie Hall in your living room.

For sure, there are walls of sound that sound like great wonderful walls of sound. A great way to create a great wall of sound is to set up your room carefully, match a pair of drivers carefully, and then put a sound-transparent but light-tight curtain between you and the speakers. Nothing leads to better stereo.

Looking at Walker, am I right to say he has the timing theoretically right but loudness across the wall is all screwed up? If arrival of sound is all that matters, he's notion would be perfect. If loudness is all that matters, just no good. Depends on human perception principles (which, if I recall, is a little of each, depending).

Ben
__________________
Dennesen ESL tweets, Dayton-Wright ESL (110-3200Hz), mixed-bass Klipschorn (35-110), and giant OB using 1960's Stephens woofer (18-35); Behringer DSP. HiFi aspirations since 1956

Last edited by bentoronto; 5th August 2013 at 02:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 02:44 PM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
bolserst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Looking at Walker, am I right to say he has the timing theoretically right but loudness across the wall is all screwed up? If arrival of sound is all that matters, he's notion would be perfect. If loudness is all that matters, just no good. Depends on human perception principles (which, if I recall, is a little of each, depending).
The difference in loudness and timing present in the recorded left and right stereo signals would be retained.
Looking at the image you can see that feeding the segemented wall ESL results in two waved fronts approaching the listener from equal angles, one left one right. This would simulate a set of stereo point sources positioned infinitely far away. The angle of separation dictated by the delay time chosen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
I read - and I can not remember where or who - where it was said that the phased array of Mr. Walker will fail... much to my chagrin, since I always wanted to do this myself.

I do not recall the exact reason at this time that it would fail but I think it has something to do with what the opposing amplifier "sees".
Certainly looks like even with the line properly terminated on each end the driving amplifiers would need to be able to deal with signals coming from the opposite end. It would be prudent to experiment at line-level first, or fire up the SPICE simulator.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 03:57 PM   #13
Paul W is offline Paul W  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Paul W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: North Georgia
Cheap & easy to try with resistors rather than inductors.
__________________
Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 04:03 PM   #14
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
With that many panels I would be tempted to try a AMT configuration.
It would be very simple to do.

There have been a few discussions on the subject but nobody has taken the time to build the many panels it takes to try it.

It is one of the things on my list of things to try sometime list.

jer
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 04:24 PM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto and Delray Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolserst View Post
The difference in loudness and timing present in the recorded left and right stereo signals would be retained.
snip
"Retained"... I thought where you are sitting (say, near one corner near the R speaker) and Walker's timing change, meant that neither is retained? Possibly the timing "bends" the wave front so it works as an "infinity" source as long as you are sitting in the middle, as far as the math goes.

Again, since Blumlein first did the stereo math, math (and hence the whole stereo enterprise) hasn't been the problem for sitting in the middle or with headphones (kind of). In a way, Walker's scheme contradicts (or alters) Blumlein.

Anyway ignoring the math niceties as I am sure we are entitled to do in real rooms, multi-track recording, and contrived recording tricks, my mixed-in-the-middle panel layout does something similar by spreading a little L over towards the right side and vice versa.

Does this help produce a sound that would get higher approval from Toole when you are sitting in the middle (my original post)? Or sitting anywhere else? Is it a good idea?

Ben
__________________
Dennesen ESL tweets, Dayton-Wright ESL (110-3200Hz), mixed-bass Klipschorn (35-110), and giant OB using 1960's Stephens woofer (18-35); Behringer DSP. HiFi aspirations since 1956
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 04:42 PM   #16
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto and Delray Beach, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by geraldfryjr View Post
With that many panels I would be tempted to try a AMT configuration.
It would be very simple to do.

There have been a few discussions on the subject but nobody has taken the time to build the many panels it takes to try it.

It is one of the things on my list of things to try sometime list.

jer
By "AMT" you mean round (or spherical!) speakers in this context?

For sure, going back to Toole, after basic sound production, finagling the ambiance is the big challenge. Much thought has gone into that by speaker makers (not much at DIYaudio forum which really needs an architectural acoustic sub-forum). In a way, round speakers is an anti-theoretical approach that actually leaves ambiance entirely to how you decorate your listening room and locate your speakers.

Backing a large ESL on to a wall just might be a recipe for terrible ambiance. So partial AMT might make good sense. Walker's scheme also "lifts" the sound off the speakers.

Big ESL speakers are maybe 85% of the way there already - as far as tossing sound indiscriminately around the room in directions not directly towards the listener.

Ben
__________________
Dennesen ESL tweets, Dayton-Wright ESL (110-3200Hz), mixed-bass Klipschorn (35-110), and giant OB using 1960's Stephens woofer (18-35); Behringer DSP. HiFi aspirations since 1956

Last edited by bentoronto; 5th August 2013 at 04:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 05:08 PM   #17
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
here are a couple of post that will give you an idea as to what I was referring to.

Electrostatic AMT?

Electrostatic AMT?

There was one post in particular that showed a drawing of a simple stacked ESL construction, But I will have to do some searching to find it.

jer
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 05:17 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
Here is another post showing what I am talking about but not the one I am looking for.

An idea for a wide dispersion ESL

jer
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 06:09 PM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto and Delray Beach, FL
Geez, I hate it when my Alzheimer's acts up (kidding, I hope). Spherical wave-front? Pleated driver to produce a wide-dispersion line-source? Deadly beaming (which shouldn't be an issue for a multi-panel big speaker)? Can you explain?

Thanks.
Ben
__________________
Dennesen ESL tweets, Dayton-Wright ESL (110-3200Hz), mixed-bass Klipschorn (35-110), and giant OB using 1960's Stephens woofer (18-35); Behringer DSP. HiFi aspirations since 1956
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2013, 07:10 PM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
bolserst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
"Retained"... I thought where you are sitting (say, near one corner near the R speaker) and Walker's timing change, meant that neither is retained? Possibly the timing "bends" the wave front so it works as an "infinity" source as long as you are sitting in the middle, as far as the math goes.
With a finite rather than infinite segmented wall, there will be left and right boundaries to the listening area(shown in the figure) you would need to stay inside of for the image to stay centered in front of you. The listening area boundaries narrow as delay is increased and the angle of the virtual sources are spread further apart. Also, moving further away from the wall of ESLs narrows the left and right boundaries of the listening area. Would be pretty cool to have a DSP setup where you could dial in the source angles from you listening chair.

What intrigues me about this idea is that(theoretically) you could have 4 people sitting side by side on a couch listening to music each experiencing the same image spread centered directly in front of them. Obviously not a good thing for home theater where you want the sound source centered on the screen, but for sharing a music listening experience it would be nice to have everybody listening in their own personal "sweet spot"

Quote:
Does this help produce a sound that would get higher approval from Toole when you are sitting in the middle (my original post)? Or sitting anywhere else? Is it a good idea?
That's a very good question...you're the one with all those panels


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul W View Post
Cheap & easy to try with resistors rather than inductors.
R-C transmission lines progressively roll off high frequencies the further you get down the line.
So probably not a good fit for this application requiring full-bandwidth "steered" wave-fronts.

Last edited by bolserst; 5th August 2013 at 07:14 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MartinLogans New/Old ESL Panels tyu Planars & Exotics 4 26th February 2012 09:39 PM
New ESL panels clicking dochungwell Planars & Exotics 19 31st October 2011 12:35 AM
Acoustic Panels (lot of pics) Highef Construction Tips 6 14th September 2010 06:08 PM
JanZen ESL panels cowanrg Planars & Exotics 6 17th December 2007 05:01 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:01 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2