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Old 8th January 2013, 08:13 PM   #1
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Default raal as supertweeter

HI

I'm currently cogitating with the idea of adding a tweeter over my ESL speaker (audiostatic ES100)

I measured them and they start to drop at about 17K

the plan is to put the Raal as supetweeter on the top crossed at about 17K with a 2nd order or steeper slope on it.

I was also considering the townshend and the tannoy supertweeter but the Raal seem to be my best option. and the later 2 have no data available...




I try to decide between the 140-15d and the 70-10 (price is not a deciding factor)

From raal website, the 150-15d is very flat above 10K
RAAL 140-15D

Madisound confirm with their measurement
The Madisound Speaker Store


But when it come to the smaller 70-10, thing get confusing
the raal website show a very flat curve above 10K
RAAL 70-10

But madisound show a very different one
The Madisound Speaker Store

HOw come they show a 10Db drop
who is to belive?


I'm leaning toward the bigger 140-15d just cause the curve show a flatter response but I wonder if madisound just have some measurement artefact.
Maybe Raal does hide that drop with some smoothing



Anyone have an idea?
Wich one would you pick?


Thanks
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Old 9th January 2013, 03:15 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post
I'm currently cogitating with the idea of adding a tweeter over my ESL speaker (audiostatic ES100). I measured them and they start to drop at about 17K
Could you describe or provide a schematic for your ESL including segmentation resistances?
In a previous thread you were discussing modifying an Audiostatic.
calling in ESL expert

Perhaps there will be a way to adjust your ESL to avoid the need for adding a tweeter.
In all of the ES-100 loudspeaker pairs I have worked on there was a 5 ohm resistor in series with the primary.
Reducing this resistance to 2 ohm raised up the drooping top end.
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Old 9th January 2013, 03:58 PM   #3
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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i had 200RS and i as i recon the played to 20k. the es 100 should be able to i guess.
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Old 9th January 2013, 08:28 PM   #4
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HEre a simplified schematic of the interface

I used a 0.15ohm primary side resistor.
stock was 1.8ohm.
Sound is much clearer with the low value one.
HF extension improved a bit. though not much.

With the shown value, I do a very flat 160 to 17k.
I could go as low as 38 with differents value but the overal frequency response wasn't very flat. Moreover, dynamic compression was limiting my max spl.

I high pass the esl at 150 and there, 2 12inch servo subs takes over.



Shown picture is giving me most accurate sound.
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File Type: jpg P1090844.jpg (396.1 KB, 365 views)
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Old 12th January 2013, 04:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post
HEre a simplified schematic of the interface
Calculated capacitive load at 20Khz for your parallel driven 3-segment is a little higher than the stock 2-segment arrangement, but probably not enough to account for the bandwidth reduction you describe.

Hmmmm...Are you using the ES-100 transformers still mounted on their PCboard?
If not, is it possible that you have the wrong ends of the secondary connected for the center-tap? To minimize capacitive load on the secondary, it is important to connect the center tap to the ends of the secondary that are closest to the primary. See attached pic.


This may be of interest...ticknpop added some ribbons to his Martin Logan CLX.
My 2:nd ESL-attempt
.
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File Type: jpg ES100_trans.jpg (71.7 KB, 323 views)

Last edited by bolserst; 12th January 2013 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 14th January 2013, 06:48 PM   #6
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Factory, my ESL had 4 wires for the hf (4 in front and 4 in back)
I reduced it to 3.
the remainer was 40 wires for the bass and mid all together (40front, 40 back)

I went from 2 to 3 sections with few trial and error to my optimum wich is 3,7,34.

Factory had I think 12K going to the hf and 160K on the bass. (Need confirmation, it is only from memory)
I went to zero on the hf and tried quite of combinaison for the other 2 segregated parts to archive best tonal balance.


My transformer are still on the pcb board and I can't see the side.
I may upgrade them to plitron but does not know if it is worth it.

I went ahead and ordered a pair of RAAL 70-10.
Should have them next week.


Can't wait to play with them and find how sound will become.

bolserst, do you use 3rd or 4rd order for your ribbon?


Martin
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Old 15th January 2013, 03:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etalon90 View Post
Factory, my ESL had 4 wires for the hf (4 in front and 4 in back). The remainder was 40 wires for the bass and mid all together (40front, 40 back)
I went from 2 to 3 sections with few trial and error to my optimum wich is 3,7,34.
Factory had I think 12K going to the hf and 160K on the bass. (Need confirmation, it is only from memory)
See attachment for comparison between factory and your arrangement.
The ES-100s I've worked on were segmented 4-40 as you stated with 376K total on the larger 40 wire section. I have seen other documented values for this resistance so it may have been changed by the manufacturer over time. There was no resistance going to the center 4 wires. The resistor "R" on the primary was 4 or 5 ohms.


Quote:
bolserst, do you use 3rd or 4rd order for your ribbon?
I have not used ribbons with my ESLs. The link I posted was for some ribbons that another DIYaudio member, ticknpop, added to his ESLs. You might send him a PM and see if he can fill you in on exactly how he integrated the ribbon.
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File Type: gif ES100_seg.gif (22.5 KB, 278 views)
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Old 30th January 2013, 05:46 PM   #8
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Just got some 70-10D at my door this morning.

Experimentation is about to start

Lpad, crossing points and slope.

Fun fun fun.
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Old 30th January 2013, 08:54 PM   #9
AAaF is offline AAaF  Norway
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Have you considered a AMT? I like the sound of these tweeters, and its more or less the only tweeter I like except electrostat(havent heard the other planars though). I wonder if this is because both are push pull construction with a relatively large membrane. Just a thought though....

Edit: seems like this is a push pull thing as well....

Last edited by AAaF; 30th January 2013 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 30th January 2013, 09:07 PM   #10
TNT is offline TNT  Sweden
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17k? I hope you hear the crickets ?

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